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Beware of the Warrior Special Offer Of The Day Scams

It is high time that internet marketers who do business at the Warrior Forum and Warrior Plus to look elsewhere. For one, it has become a bit of a monopoly, and that is never good for anyone. Size does not equal quality, but just dilutes it. Secondly, it has become a monetary scam on many fronts.

Allan Says (yep, ‘Says’ is his last name) of the WarriorForum.com, and Mike Lantz, of Warriorplus.com, have created a system that is fast becoming the next platform for scam-minded internet marketers. Let me explain….

First, the Warrior Forum and its Warrior Special Offers subforum.

The ‘Warrior Forum’ is a internet marketing forum that has a huge membership. What has become very lucrative for both Allan Says and Mike Lantz is a subforum called, Warrior Special Offers. In this specialty forum, product creators can pay Allan $40 to post on his forum, and in doing so, you will get some traffic from the general membership and visitors of his forum.

Note: Don’t get all excited thinking you will get rich by making a Warrior Special Offer and getting all this free traffic and make a bunch of sales. From my stats, it will only count for about 5% or less of your total sales. The bulk will come from good JV partners who mail to your offer, not warrior forum free traffic. My list does not care where the salespage is hosted, as long as it is a great offer.

Let me add, there are Warrior Forum fanatics and zeolous warriors. Their entire day is spent doing nothing but forum marketing on this one forum by making posting, replying to messages, establishing relationships, commenting on posts, etc….

Also, just like there is Clickbank JV inner circle crap, so there is Warrior Special Offers JV inner circle crap, with reciprocal business and promotions.

Next, there is WarriorPlus.

For a $19 fee (per product listed), you can list your Warrior Special Offer in the WarriorPlus marketplace. WarriorPlus brings sellers and affiliates together, offering instant payments of commissions, including sales and affiliate tracking.

What has become popular by Mike Lantz is, what he describes, as the ‘Warrior Special Offer of the Day.’ I am not really sure of the requirements, but every day Mike will choose one (1) Warrior Special Offer listed at the Warrior Forum, that is also listed at his WarriorPlus, and email his entire list as the Warrior Special Offer of the Day. Just think of your local grocery store emailing all customers a “special of the day.”

When Mike emails his Warrior Special Offer of the Day, he will make a number of sales from his Warriorplus list (yep, you are on his list when you register).

I have been on this WarriorPlus list, and two weeks ago, I unsubscribed.

Why? Because it is sheer rubbish and marketing crap. The Warrior Special Offer of the Day is meant to do one thing: make money for Mike Lantz. Sure, it brings in sales for the product creator (mostly from Mike’s personal sales), but if you think because it is a ‘Warrior Special Offer Of The Day’ that it is a great product, worth the investment, and you should buy it, think again.

In fact, 95% of the Warrior Special Offers of the Day that Mike Lantz promotes are sheer crap, and some of them are even blatant scams. And, although I have no way of verifying this other than my own story (see below), it is highly probable that Mike does not even look at the the product he is endorsing. And in my story below, this certainly is the case. What is more likely to be looked at is, ‘how much money will he make if he makes this Warrior Special Offer of the Day.’

What is worse is the WarriorPlus affiliate marketers and Warrior Special Offer marketers. I am now reluctant to promote a Warrior Special Offer to my list unless I know the marketer will not abuse their list with offer after offer of pure rubbish.

Have you been on a list where the list owner will try and sell you anything and everything?

I should write another post entitled: “How you know your guru is out to scam you.” It is easy to spot. They have absolutely ‘no plan’ for your success, other than taking your money and putting it into their own pocket. They are all over the map in their email marketing to you.

True Story:

About 6 weeks ago I received Warrior Special Offer of the Day by Mike Lantz. He was promoting a “Free Backlinks System 2.0.” I visited the salespage on the Warrior Forum, was impressed by the social proof, and I purchased.

Being a seo focused marketer myself, I wanted to see this ‘free backlink system’ that generated the social proof, as displayed on the salespage.

When I first logged into the ‘Free Backlink System 2.0’ I was immediately taken to a welcome video by Todd Gross, who I personally know. My first thought was, ‘what the heck is Todd doing here.’ As it turns out, Todd was just the marketing point man, while the product creator is someone else, by the name of Jonathan.

The Free Backlink System 2.0 in a nutshell, as taught, is getting backlinks from press releases, video sharing sites, PAD directory sites, bookmarking sites, article directory sites, and forum marketing.

This was all stuff I taught back in 2008. However, these methods do not work like they use to.

Here is where the table turns. I go back to the Free Backlink System 2.0 salespage, and I look at the social proof screenshots. I reverse engineered some of these social proof website rankings, and to my astonishment, Jonathan leaves a footprint on all of his backlinks, but the backlinks DO NOT come from any of the sources that he teaches in his Free Backlink System 2.0. All of the backlinks from the websites on his salespage are from a PAID blog network, not from any of the Free Backlink system 2.0 sources that he teaches, and what his salespage proof is selling.

So, I skype Todd Gross and say, ‘what the heck is going on.’ Todd is like, I have no idea, I will talk to Jonathan. Todd Gross gets back to me and says, “Well, I asked Jonathan about the salespage proof, but you will not like the answer.”

I then make a couple postings on this Warrior Special Offer thread saying, ‘all your backlinks come from a blog network,’ not from press releases, or bookmarks, or article directories, etc…. Jonathan responds, ‘ya, I know, but I taught about blog networks in Free Backlink System 1.0.

At this point, my scam indicator is sky high. This was a pure scam and money grab by all parties involved, and what is worse, Mike Lantz branded this as Warrior Special Offer of the Day.

I emailed Mike Lantz about it, and his response was, “well Mark, you have to be careful what you call a scam, etc, etc, etc….”

My response to that is: Bull-Do-Do.

In summary, be very careful that you are not lured into the Warrior Special Offer of the Day hype because most of it is garbage, and some of them are scams by criminal minded money grabbers who care nothing about you other than taking money from you.

Many Clickbank product scammers are currently being shut down at Clickbank and not getting their salespage and products approved. These same scammers are now reappearing at Forums where there are no rules, no moderation of salespages or their products.

Sure, there are some good Warrior Special Offers, and some are even great, but they surely are not every day, and hardly even every week. Additionally, if you buy a warrior special offer, and you immediately start getting promotion after promotion from this person, unsubscribe to the list fast.

If you are a ‘would be’ of great internet marketing products for your business, or if you are a product creator, I recommend you look for other platforms to do business.

Some of the rising stars are:

Marketplaces To List Your Products

Forums To List Your Products To Send Your Traffic To:

I can go on and on about this topic. If you have any questions about this topic, please ask.

Post a comment please.

What are your thoughts on this?

About Mark Dulisse

Software Developer, Blogger, SEO Consultant, Internet Marketer

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  1. Caution:
    I bought two plugins that do not work in France.
    Never refund.

  2. Not surprising. The same thing happened with the clickbank market.

    Lots of low quality products flooded the market. A number of them scammed the IM audience out of money, then it stopped working. The same thing is happening with WSOs.

    I’ve talked with a few people in IM about the crash coming soon. And what I see happening is… again… the IM audience losing confidence in the marketplace.

    However, it’s not bad news for legit product creators because when WSOs go down, the IM audience is going to need information, tools, etc…

  3. Your words – my thoughts. I’ve been with them for years, but cottoned on to the fact that there couldn’t possibly be so many super great products every day. Consequently, unsubscribed 3 weeks ago and am better for it. Thanks for the good write up Mark.

  4. Thank you Mark. I will definitely unsubscribe now. I thought I was the only one thinking that there is something wrong with the WSO of the day from Mike. In fact I don’t open emails from him anymore.

    Great products are not created each and everyday and I am pretty sure you will agree.

    I am a fan of WF because that is where I found your product, Short Code Deluxe, that is yours, right?

    I also bought another one from Daniel Tan called Social Metrics Pro which I am promoting as an affiliate because I know it is a great product.

    BUT the WSO of the DAY? Duh!!! I am not paying attention to those emails anymore. Especially NOW that you have written this.

    Thanks Again,

  5. Hi Mark,
    Boy you really hit the nail on the head. I sent a scathing email the other day to one of the hypsters at the WF and said exactly the same thing. I seems like this change has occurred at some point in the last 12 months. I remember when I first discovered the WF the offers were all solid and helped me immensely. Now it is like Clickbank, you can say whatever you want and it does not matter. I was victim to this last week when I bought a couple of cheap WSO’s and they were pure crap. One was pitching me a program called Zip Nada Zilch as a way to make money with CPA Marketing…lol…What a joke. I asked for a refund and still have received no answer. The other offer was for another piece of crap called CPA Shark Attack. This one was so stupid and so un-unique I even forget what it was about. It is a shame really as the WF used to be a place you could go for trusted information and now it is just a means to steal people’s money from them. Sadly the reason they have been able to do this with me was because of the reputation they had established when they were younger and they lived off that for awhile. Hopefully people will wake up, including myself, and realize that the WF is no longer to be trusted as a source for quality information and products. Thanks again for the great post.

  6. Hi Mark..

    I’ve been following you for a while, and have purchased many of your products..and it’s nice to see that someone is looking out for the rest of us that may now know how to “reverse engineer” things. I just purchased a WSO – several in fact the other day. One I went through..and it’s the same old crap..yet the sales page tells you you’ll get this information and that..only to purchase and find out that you don’t get the information you are looking for. I was looking for specific info that he laid out in his sales page.. How do you unsubscribe from someones list if they sold you a software product that requires updates? I don’t think you can…so I’ve got tons of offers coming in, clogging up my email, and tempting me to buy, buy buy.. Any advice?



    • @ Valarie – In your case, I would have a plan, and stick to your plan. I was chatting with another super affiliate. We are both on only about 5 people’s lists, because we trust their advice and they give us a good picture of what is going on.

  7. Mark, You are so right on with this. I fell prey to one of the scams myself and have followed your advice by unsubscribing from the list. Thanks for caring!

  8. Thank you for writing this Mark. It’s refreshing to hear someone come out so strongly.

    I don’t think I would go quite as far as you however. I know there are a lot of crap WSOs but equally there are some gems and really good prices. My advice would be to create a filter to take all of your WSO emails and automatically archive them in their own folder. Only look there for something when you have a need. Of course, unsubscribe from those who totally abuse the trust you have placed in them and be very wary of the multiple OTO crowd.

  9. Hello Mark and thanks for this very informative post.

    I too have been sucked into the Specials of the day and had to
    request a refund on more than one occasion. The offers will seem
    incredible and for the money seem like a steal, but in the end, may
    not be what you wanted or needed.

    I’m starting to find the daily Special of the day emails distracting
    and I too am going to unsubscribe and heed your warning.

    Thanks again for looking out for the ‘little guy’ Mark, we appreciate


  10. Hey Mark,

    Thanks for sharing this. Looking forward to more of your posts. Have a nice day!


  11. Hi Mike,

    I am not sure about how much of a scam it may all be, one thing I can say with certainty is that I have found the value of the offers from the Warrior Forum to be on a downward spiral to the point I have unsubscribed from many of the list.

    Another indicator that supports what you have written is the increase of the number of refunds I have requested, an example here was one called Panda something or other, all it gave was the advice to purchase an aged domain! Advice that has been available for free and known for many years, this was heavily pushed by the affiliates.

    There have been some genuine gems, but I would say 80% of what I got emailed was not worth the email itself.

    Time to move on, have had a lot of good value from JvZoo which you recommend, will look at the others too.

    Kind regards,

  12. Great post! I totally agree. Many WSO’s are not only not worth the cost of buying them now, the biggest cost is the time you waste figuring out that they ARE worthless. And a big high five on this endless wave of affiliates and additional offers once you buy something. It never stops. I have just started canceling my subscription to these lists.

    Another problem too is these offers that require you to recheck licensing or use the sellers server. Will not ever do that again. The seller stops supporting their product, or something goes wrong, and you are left out in the cold.

    Also one other point. The WSO forum does have an inner circle. In fact, they have a conference every year to lure more people into their circle to come up with products they can promote to their list and make money. Its held in Raleigh, NC and in fact they just had one last month. I went to the one last year and it was a waste of money and time.

    The WSO forum does have good products and information from time to time. For $7 usually, or a little more, you can get a nice plugin or some information. But the buyer really needs to beware.

  13. While I agree on the ‘WSO of the Day’ comments to some extent – the problem goes way beyond Mike’s recommendations. I have purchased at least 2 WSOs in just the past few days that were highly promoted and praised by many long-time WF members…..and they were about as basic a product as you could possibly buy…..yet they were being praised as though they were truly new found ‘treasure’! In fact – as has happened several times in the past – you have to wonder if many of these reviewers even looked at the product, because their reviews certainly did not seem to match the product that I was looking at!

    I won’t unsub from Mike’s list simply it does occasionally still provide a gem, and it makes it easier than surfing through everything – but the WSOPro notification system is a better tool to use. Just set it to what you are most interested in (ie: WordPress) and it will let you know when something new is posted that meets your requirements – but I agree that the new platforms popping up are certainly worth the time to check out!

  14. Mark, Thanks for your honesty. Most of the GURU’s are there to make money and they have no plan for other’s success.

  15. Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your honest review. I’ve purchased some fantastic WSO’s over the years but a lot more that were basically duds. I think the low cost of most of these makes people less vocal and more willing to write off their losses, but, like you, I’ve been growing increasingly frustrated and cynical about the types of things being promoted there. Thanks for your courage and integrity in calling this out. You’ve gained a lot of respect by telling the truth.


  16. I’m glad somebody is finally speaking out about that bunch over there.

  17. Hi Mark,

    I get an email everyday from a marketer that always says “Just bought….” then the WSO. How can anyone go through so much info? So those emails I delete (actually, I am going to unsubscribe).

    Same for Mike – actually his emails go directly to my spam folder for some reason (maybe Google is getting smarter) and I just leave them there. Again I will unsubscribe because it is really a waste of time and space.

    I used to look on the Warrior forum but not any more. More of the same and I have had experiences with some pretty crappy stuff. I just wish that some Internet Marketers would stop promoting them and save their own reputations – but then, money talks.

    Thanks for the post – it is rare to see someone stick their neck out like this. Really appreciate it.

  18. Hi Mark,

    Unfortunately I have to agree with you about what’s happening with WSOs these days. The last three I bought have all been re-hashed backlink techniques (linkwheels and bookmarks, etc.) that have nowhere near the value they used to. It’s fine when someone writes this and tries to sell it, it is not fine when the affiliates come in and praise it as “incredible, never-before-seen” techniques. It’s obvious that they have figured out that the $7 to $10 price point means most people won’t bother with requesting a refund.

    The other problem I have is when i actually took the effort to run my first WSO about video marketing. It was truly the most innovative ideas I was using to get videos ranked. I sent it to some people I knew in the forums who told me it was great stuff. It was a $9 product. I only listed it with a 50% affiliate commission in WarriorPlus, which hurt me because apparently affiliates only promote the 100% affiliate products. Anyway, I ran the WSO and things were going fairly well with sales for the first 24 hours. Then a member of the forum got on the thread and basically started undermining it with his comments. He never bought it, so he had no idea what was in it, but decided to complain about one of the keyword examples (out of 4) on my sales page. I attempted to discuss it with him in the thread but he kept spewing inaccurate information and absolutely killed the sales. My buyers were leaving great reviews but it didn’t matter because he overwhelmed the thread with his negativity.

    I complained about this, but since he didn’t come out and say not to buy my product or that it was garbage, they did nothing about it.

    So I have not bothered with another WSO. I keep my information to myself and use it to beat out my competitors. Meanwhile, the “gurus” keep everyone ignorant to the truth by selling them crap. Go figure.

    • @ Marcus – I had the same thing happen to me a while back ago. Some person, who I suspected was the competition incognito, tried to ruin my thread. I complained to moderators who were slow and finally, after threatening to bring legal action to them for damages, they deleted the guys posts. I demanded to know who this person was. If you make allegations, you better be prepared to give evidence and face the person, are my thoughts.

  19. I got hooked into the Warrior forum in November of last year. Probably have spent a couple hundred dollars on products since. Some have been interesting and useful, others still sit on my hard drive and I wonder what the heck was i thinking. Lately I’ve found that the Warrior Special Offer emails do not interest me as much as they used to. In fact I’ll probably unsubscribe soon. Maybe I’m more wise to the marketing? Maybe I don’t have as much “shiny object syndrome” as I did before? Who knows. There are some interesting things on that forum, don’t get me wrong. Just need to step back and decide what you can really use and what you really want to pay for. I like that other alternatives are popping up. I like JVzoo myself and have gotten a couple things off there. But again I use caution and try to only get what I need. It’s very easy to get sucked in by sparkling sales letters.

  20. Mark you are completely right on your statements and i’m sure there’s some decent people on the warrior forum but what you just stated is the 800lb Gorilla and we all knew about it or at least i hope so, you are one of the few marketers i’m still subscribed to.

  21. Yes Mark, WSO has become the scam paradise of the guru “wannabes” suckering Internet marketer “wannabes” I too wondered about all the “special offers”. How on earth could Mike pretend to test and evaluate them and still find time to breathe escaped me. WSO = FRAUD as far as I am concerned.

  22. You mention Clickbank but it’s not in your Marketplace list. Another reason Clickbank is still a top network is the huge number of affiliates you get. But your product has to be good and convert. Btw if you sign up to JVZoo you will get a deal of the day, but this can be changed to a weekly or you can unsubscribe anytime.

  23. Very boldly put my friend. I have made purchases through the WSO of the day as well. Some very good deals and worthy products and some as you say “Crap”. Anyone who deals with the Forum does have the capability of reading all of the reviews before making an educated decision of whether of not to make a purchase. So like anything in life these days, you better do your research before dropping the coin on something.

    • @ Kevin Hauff – Yes, I agree. There is another issue in that even the reviews are often scams and are done by co-conspirator ‘friends.’ You can see genuine comments from snake oil one’s. 🙂

  24. Amazing. I unsubscribed last month as well as I could tell all the wso I was getting were useless to me. You’ve made a new friend and much respect.

    Funny thing too I emailed a “guru” last month letting him know when I get his emails I feel like I’ve been in a nine round fight. It’s just constant offers after offers which offer no value. Just buy buy buy buy.

    People can know the gold is in the list, but u treat the list as fools gold. It will turn on you


  25. It’s refreshing to see someone speak out so honestly instead of all the usual ass-kissing, back-slapping nonsense.

    I realized what a crock the so-called “WSO of the Day” is a few months ago when it promoted a product which already had about 3 pages of complaints by the time the promo mail came out! It was obvious that Lantz hadn’t even looked at the product, let alone tried using it.

    The worst thing about the WSOs is that you can’t trust the reviews to be genuine since it’s very obvious that there’s a huge amount of mutual promoting going on. The only thing you can do is to make a note of the marketers you know personally have produced good products, and go with their recommendations.

    Nowadays the only thing I buy through WSOs are software.



  26. Mark,

    Seems like alot of people are coming to the same conclusion. I just unsubscribed from Mike’s list recently for the same reason. Many of the WSO’s of the Day were an insult. My experience has been that especially recently, the quality of WSO’s is awful, when you discover something is garbage, refunds are impossible, product owners just disappear completely when anything goes wrong on the WSO Thread…..etc……

    A real mess which I removed myself from.

  27. Hi,

    I am totally agree about what you explain in your article. I have seen that a lot of wso´s are purely created to sell and sell and not to help people to earn money. It is incredible about how many wsos show you how to create another wsos (in the same wso forum!), so it is the scam in front of your face, they tell you, do you want to scam too, we teach you (in front of all the people, without hiding). I tell scam because they teach you that you can do wsos without being expert in anything. I see too much people in this forum that start little and now they are considered gurus in their fields, but I have read some of their products and they are garbage, they don´t teach you anything. One last example, I have read a seo guide from “paul´s backlinks” (we all know about it). I expect a lot from that guide. Well it is good for a 15 years old person, nothing more, we all know about that kind of backlinks, we all know what he say in his ebook… finally in his pdf he has put a lot of affiliate links for you to buy another things… so he gets rich from you.
    As you say in your post, I believe that WF has to have good people and good experts there, but there are so many wso´s that it is very difficult to find them.

    • @ fj – Good point. The biggest scam is for a wso is, “Learn how to be a wso super affiliate and make $100k per year doing wso’s. Just buy my wso to learn how.”

      Do they think we are stupid? It is the same scam as, “Learn how to make $100k per year selling ebooks. Buy my ebook.” Cha Ching. Dah!

  28. Excellent information Mark … I too have begun ignoring the e-mails from Mike. Although sometimes I catch myself looking at what received his coveted “award” for the day and think, Wow, I got that … good choice, me! Now I’m worried … like many, I sometimes jump on offers because they look like something that I’ll “need” after finishing the current project and then time gets away from me. I’ve become somewhat of an addict, but was feeling comfortable because MOST of the time I’m taking the suggestions of guys I trust. That being said, I have delved right into a couple WSO’s and found that they were not “newbie friendly”, but was lucky that my “trusted” referrer was very gracious and promptly refunded me … stating that they honestly hadn’t tried the product, but felt that THEY knew the marketer’s reputation well!

    Your words of caution are deeply appreciated and solidify the opinion I was beginning to develop in the back of my mind, but was refusing to believe. Count me, as another you’ve “saved”! Thank you!!!

  29. Keep on preaching the truth, I myself hesitate to buy the “Special Offers of the Day”. They are only fooling themselves, by thinking they are smart business men… ha ha, great to know Mark… and I think I will past this post on to some of my subscribers!

  30. The WSO forum is so full of hyped up junk it’s rediculous. It’s a place where junk info marketing rules and the makers scam the people like crazy.

  31. I totally agree.

    The word special offer of the day seems absurd.

    It will really distract your focus.
    And of course is M-L selfish and greedy!

    The forum has become one giant, fat, unholy cash cow.

    I only respect people who contact me @ the most -once a week.

    All the others are greedy, unethical DB marketers who maybe created 1-2 good products but has gone bananas with all the reciprocal mailing BS.

    How about a boycut?? 🙂


  32. Hey Mark,

    Amen to all of this. Coincidentally I also unsubscribed from WSO about a fortnight ago. Unfortunately IM is becoming increasingly ruined by people who only care about the money, and don’t give a damn about adding value and helping their customers. On the other side of the coin, there’s always a wave of naive newbies who think that there is a magic bullet out there. So until the market is strictly regulated (which should be nothing to worry about for anyone making an honest buck), or some other method is used to keep the scammers away, these people will continue to bring out horrendous products that damage the industry.

    Great post.


  33. Hey Mark,

    Yea, I’ve caught on real quick. Now, I only buy what I need and delete tons of email trying to sell me WSOs. You when there is a product launch at WF, I get ton of offers by many marketers. Anyway, thanks for the info.


  34. I agree and have noticed similarities to what you’re describing.

    What I find as humorous, yet costly to the uninformed, are all the offers out there from WF and others, touting “new software,’ which does blah, blah, blah, and is “push button easy.”

    “New” software means beta or worse. It’s also untested except by low-class friends of the promoter and others, many of whom never really used it or had sporadic results then priced the best example, leaving out all the rest, such as crashes, not working as promoted, etc.

    The best kind of promotion is one where the potential customer thinks it’s their fault they don’t know about this guru or that product, etc. Many of these scammers are master persuasion artists, or they just good enough to promote to the inner-greed and laziness of a vast base of ignorant suckers who don’t know enough to evaluate what they are about to buy.

  35. Hey Mark,

    You do talk some sense but its also not all bad. I have many WSO that have helped me in certain areas of my marketing training. But you are right about the Warrior Special Offer Of The Day!

    I think they should change it to the Warrior Special Offer Of The Month. There are so many WSO coming out all the time and before you know it you become a serial WSO buyer. If it does not fit in to your plans then by pass it.

    Also I would unsubscribe from Mike’s list as you are just lining his pockets day in day out!

  36. My brother recommended I might like this web site.
    He was totally right. This post actually made my day.
    You cann’t imagine simply how much time I had spent for this info! Thanks!

  37. Hey Mark!,

    Forgot to ask. I am putting some products together and was thinking of using either Digi Results or JVZoo was not sure as they are both pretty good.

    What are your thoughts?


  38. Like Randy, the only reason I subscribed to Warrior Plus was because it was the only way to get one of your products “early”. I bought several products from Warrior Plus since then…they are okay but nothing to shout about (unlike your offers…I shout about them:-).
    You make a habit of kicking these types to the curb i.e. A. Goad and I respect you for that.

  39. Good call Mark, I’ve been getting very uncomfortable about the hyped up nature of of some of the stuff on offer. Some of the things I have bought into are genuine, but like you say, there really can’t be a mover and a shaker every day. Even Google isn’t moving that fast. @Karen from Derby Web Design, you are so right about that inner circle of mutual self promotion and false reviews. How the hell can anyone give an honest review when they’ve only just taken the toy out of the wrapper… wankers all of them even if they are far richer than me!

  40. Bill (Buck) Meyers

    Thanks for some great advice…so true! The bad thing is that every day newbie and not so newbie marketers visit the site either by a recommendation of someones mailing list or through BS sent by Mike Lantz as this being the greatest WSO since the beginning of time, only to be suckered into their next scam that does not offer any value. I think it is time for another IM Niche product Mark here…you always speak the truth!

  41. Thanks Mark, I had received so many of these I had actually created a special folder called WSO Notifications. I see now the smarter move is to just unsubscribe. If something is really good I am sure good folks will be talking about it.


  42. It can be a great place to pick up very inexpensive software before it is launched to the ‘public’ though, but as mentioned previously – do not ever get anything that requires server pinging every time you use it!! I learned that lesson the hard way – a lot of these people are so busy protecting themselves by making sure that the software doesn’t get used by the ‘wrong’ person – yet don’t think twice about closing up shop and leaving the buyers hung out to dry with a plugin that no longer functions.

    Very frustrating and complaining to the WF obviously does no good at all.

  43. Mark I agree. It seems like ever offered recommended to me gets this great hype like its the greatest super pill to cure your Internet marketing blues. The prices are cheap enough (until you add them all up) so you bite but before you can even examine the product you get hit with a OTO that they say speeds up the process and improve results and you really must have or it disappears at that price forever. You have no idea if the original product is even worth the money yet. End result 90% of the stuff sites on the hard drive and the good stuff gets lost amongst them. I gave up buying from WSO for almost a year and just recently started again. Everything you offered I have loved along with a few others individuals. Thanks for your post.

  44. Quick Mark, get your credit card

    Subject: [WSO ‘Adsense’] Make $200/Day – 2 WEEK Old AdSense Site With TWO Posts Makes $10/Day

    Wait, let me go take one of my reality check pills. 🙂

  45. This topic is spot on. There were even some marketers I used to have regards for, like James Sides, Hector and a bunch of others, but heck, they sent promotions for some crappy offers for a measly 10 bucks or thereabout that didn’t work and refunds not honored? I was like WTF. The eye opener was one of Tim Atkins phrase, that “if you don’t mail and sell stuff to your list regularly, someone else will”, so that someone else might as well be you. Obviously, no regards to integrity.

    It’s all about, sell them stuff, and more stuff, and more stuff or you’re leaving money on the table :). Have anyone noticed the kind of upsells / downsells being introduced lately, hilarious…..

    Anyway, I already realized that you are responsible for taking care of yourself.

    But some products you purchase, you want to stay informed about updates, and then you receive every other thing but the expected product update.

    Here’s what I eventually did: I picked each of those marketers, and use my email search feature to check all mails from them.

    The result was shocking, some of them sent three different offers in one day. This enabled me to now keep my inbox clean, and filter out all those evil-minded marketers.

    Some of them, I just created another email and changed the subscription email to that secondary email, so I only see them if and when I have time for and have need to check for any product update.

    You just have to protect your own interest, as anyone who sends you offer, after offer even once every four days is not thinking of your success but his own pocket.

  46. I just wanted to balance out this conversation by saying I’ve actually been on some good WSO trainings recently. One from Chris Munch and another from Alex Jeffreys. Granted I’m not exactly a super affiliate at this stage, so I don’t really have a great deal of success to be able to vouch for (“don’t ask a poor person how to get rich etc etc”) but I would say I’ve learnt more from some of these trainings than I have from some ‘Guru’s’ $497.00 courses.

    I genuinely want to benefit people, and never intended to get in to the IM niche. But most of what people put out there even at high price points is utter bollo*ks. (Excuse my language)

    As a Temple Style Taiji/Meditation Teacher I have been taught some of the most rare things you can find, and if someone offers me money for my services I over deliver on my promise without fail… because IT’S MY JOB!!! That’s what I signed up for!!! That I believe is my duty… to help others follow a path if they genuinely want to grow and become a better human being.

    But here’s the thing. I reckon in most cases unless you’re learning one on one with someone in the IM niche you’re rarely learning anything special, as they rarely have a vested interest in seeing you succeed – (i.e. a high paying client they will want to keep month on month) and don’t want their ooba-techniques diluted. The truth is most in the IM niche are in it to make money for themselves, not help others to make money.

    As always we just have to be discerning. Good offer’s appear everywhere. So do bad one’s. As Mark said earlier. It’s probably best to just stay subscribed to people you know and trust, if all you get is spammy messages that always praise every-bloody-thing that is for sale… rather then varied and good honest reviews… cut ’em off.

    Mike Lantz’s emails are always like… “Oh, this one’s amazing, the best thing ever *puke* etc etc” it’s always the same. I’m still on his list, but I read it for information purposes… I don’t believe every word of what he says… it’s obvious he’s a salesman first and a possibly not even a teacher second.

    I kinda have a variety of people I listen to. One’s I trust and ones I don’t. I know them each as they are, and use all that info to get a picture on the market… what the spammers are doing, and what the good’uns are doing too. That’s my 2 cents. Best of luck everyone. 🙂

    But I will repeat… I’ve bought products at very high prices that have taught me WAAAAAAAY less effective methods from some of the biggest names in IM (I’m not going to drop names at this point…)

    And some WSO’s (not all, some were also crappy…) but at least I only spent $9.00 or whatever to find out if their method didn’t work. For those of us who don’t have credit, and have little money to invest in growing our business short of earning to fund the business, this is actually one of the only ways I’ve seen to try new things out, and find reliable product makers.

    I spent loads on so called high tier coaching. I now know way more current info from a few WSO’s. Go figure. One day soon I’ll earn enough to get one to one coaching from whoever did the best job with their low priced coaching courses.

    Until then I need to be able to connect the dots enough and make enough from a basic set-up to be able to afford $500 – $1000 per month one to one coaching. I care too much about doing something valuable while I’m alive to give up. So see you at the top of the mountain. 🙂

    Matthew 🙂

    P.S Alex Jeffreys course was good. Very thorough in outlining business principles, but Chris Munch course gave a great way to generate traffic… thanbks to Alex I realised where some of the holes are in my business that need filling. Whihc made me realise that none of the courses I’ve ever bought yet have truly coached people obout running and creating a good automated system for subscribers……. AND DELIVERED ON THEIR PROMISE. This could be because it’s either incredibly difficult to teach that way… or that information is locked away behind very high process to keep it hidden from the majority. Could be both. 🙂

  47. Wow! Have I been had.

    Tell me how do you go about getting a refund when some of these jerks don’t respond to e-mails?
    I understand PayPal refers you back to seller. Talk about going round in circles.

  48. WOW thanks Mark. You rock! You have just confirmed what I thought. I really appreciate your honesty and integrity. Many thanks and please keep up the good work.

  49. I too have noticed the change to WSO over the last few years.
    What they need is a few rule changes, such as they must state in
    the sales pages if there are OTOs how many there are, and are
    they necessary, plus the costs of the OTO.
    I have to read all the posts to see if the seller answer the question
    after being asked numerous times in the post.

    And as you say Mark, there are to many affiliates promoting things
    they have not purchased or even tried. I even had identical sales
    emails from different affiliates.

    I am glad you have mentioned this and are prepared to speak up.

  50. WarriorPlus is one affiliate, and the Warriorforum contains many affiliates and many vendors – you of which have been one – I promoted your product on there.

    Digiresults, Clickbank, WarriorPlus and JVZoo are just affiliate networks. They contain good and bad apples, just like any marketplace. Out of all them Clickbank has the strongest vetting system since the FTC cracked down on them.

    Digiresults and JVZoo also do ‘WSO of The Day’ type daily offers – so they are also affiliates that are making money from daily deal promos. So those networks are not necessarily better or worse than WarriorPlus in that respect. The same conflict of interest exists. It is really down to the ethics of those networks into what they do and don’t promote.

    The warrior forum is just a marketplace, just like ForumSpecialOffers and and WSOForum – both of these alternatives are trying to build on what WSOs are – just look at the names of those platforms. Like the WSO marketplace they will contain good and bad offers, just like eBay contains good and bad vendors. Many of the issues that buyers face in WF, exist on those alternatives.

    Right now the WSO forum remains incredibly popular as a platform as it has a level of trust because:
    – you don’t have exit scripts and stuff like that (which is common on CB hosted offers)
    – they have some rules on what can be listed (but not as strict as CB, but more strict than Digi or JVZoo)
    – they have a large community where people can post their honest reviews (but balanced with rules to prevent trolls and haters from taking over)
    – they have moderators who will shut down offers that don’t provide support or look particularly untrustworthy.

    Now don’t get me wrong, it is far from a perfect system, and has many flaws, as do many of the other marketplaces and affiliate networks. But there’s a reason why it remains so popular.

    So while it is brave of you to come out and point out that not all is rosy in the WSO forum – which I completely agree with – let’s remember that there are good and bad apples in any marketplace. And the alternatives you mention are essentially the same thing, with the same potential problems and conflicts of interest.

    • @ Chris Munch,

      Respectfully, I could not disagree with you more. Any webmaster who emails their membership and subscriber list bogus products, and some even bordering on criminal money grab scams, is a stupid webmaster. To say, “well, it is just part of the system,” is a rather weak excuse. Systemic evil is the worst kind. 🙂

  51. Hey Mark,

    I don’t understand you one bit. You are just like the rest of the guys selling products, whether it’s ClickBank or WSOs or even your high ticket $497 and $997 launches. You sell the same crap rehashed just like everyone else and I know this because I’ve purchased many of your products and have refunded every. single. one.

    You have a lot of nerve to sit here and bash people when I’m sure 98% of your money that pays your bills is from selling products, not actually doing any affiliate marketing. When IM goes down you will go down with it. Watch yourself in Canada buddy, the FTC shows no fear with neighborhood countries of the USA.

  52. I agree with everything you have posted here.

    One of my big wave offs for WSOs is the Facebook, Twitter or other “Social Media” plugins.
    Social Media sites by their nature are dynamic and constantly changing to meet user needs. What is the chance that a Product seller who has engaged a PHP programmer to develop a plugin can keep up with the changes that these Billion dollar tech companies make.

    Most of the WSO’s run out of steam, the developers abandon ship and the users are left with products that are unusable – this happens time and again – there have even been WSO’s where previous customers have turned up asking what happened to Version 1 of a product that they were meant to get unlimited support on – and why was the developer selling version 2??? – the ridiculous thing is that the amount of sycophants that jump to the defence of the seller and trash the person questioning the veracity of the offering.

    I have bailed from a few good sellers lists for JVing crap to make a quick buck.

    Your post is the start of an IM reality check – please don’t use this as a WSO title ;D.

    We all need to identify the good products and give our cash to good developers and support the longevity of their activities, and in so doing mutually protect out own long-term interests and success.

  53. What bothers me the most is that so many of the WSO sales letters are blind. They show screen shots (which are easy to fake) and claim amazing results (which are impossible to verify), but don’t adequately describe the information/product and how it is supposed to work. The description of the information or product is usually so vague that it’s impossible to know what you’re getting ahead of time. If you do purchase, more often than not it’s a re-hashed or totally ripped off technique that someone else developed years ago.
    Of course, every WSO offer says it has an unconditional guarantee, but trying to get a refund is a lot more difficult than it should be, so many people give up… another typical characteristic of scams.

  54. Mark,

    Finally a voice of reason amongst the guys I actually know and respect. I have the short code deluxe software and use it all the time. and , though I have read a lot about this BS on a website called: http://www.warriorforumsucks.com/. I sorta of let it go as rantings of a lot of nuts. But in the recent months I’m so barraged by crap emails I have also have been unsubscribing from lots of gurus, I mean can chris mako really look at every product and buy it and implement it in his own company, does he even have a company? I mean some of his stuff is good, but a lot of what he recommends is not good and I recently realized he s just in it to make money from the unsuspecting newbies. Mike Lantz..i mean I read them all, but again I use it a as sort tool. If it makes sense fine , otherwise I threw it way. Just too many emails , I see his emails as banner ads that I have become blind to…

    So Like Melody said, I agree you can find many good products. You just have to sort thru the crap. I like Marks idea of just subscribing to those people whose products you have bought in the past that have proven to be of value. I got so sick of the spam emails that I created a BS email that I only use for offers I buy . Its time to get rid of all the “franks”, and “mikes” and “shauns” that no one even knows or who has never put out a worthy product of their own or just doesn’t have any proven reason for someone to listen to and buy from. BUT I don’t know if jvzoo is any better. I see a lot of hyped crap coming from them too. No wonder Paypal is slapping Affiliate marketers left and right. That audio recording on the WF from Frank Ayres a few weeks back was epic and telling on what paypal feels about the warrior forum and some of the BS products being put out on it. That is why I’m putting out my first WP Plugin product via clickbank first and will do a WSO after. I don’t care if the other gurus wont slap my back and promote my product because Im not giving way 100% commissions. I think it will stand on its own….. and hopefully those that see that will promote it. Don’t get me wrong, The warrior forum is still a valuable place to go and buy stuff and get good advice. But its “caveat emptor” for sure…Buyer beware! ~S

  55. I have stopped using Warrior Forum long ago because of this same reason, I have unsubscribed to all the lists (other than Mark and a few other people who has true integrity) The amount of money I have saved from not being part of them is amazing. I honestly believe that the WF is slowly becoming history…

  56. Amen, brother!!

  57. Jeramiah Townsend

    Thanks Mark.

    I unsubscribed about 2 months ago from the WSO for the same reasons. But I still see value in offering some products on the Warrior Forum and as a WSO because there is still a market there and opportunity to make sales.

    I haven’t promoted it yet, but I have a brand spankin new WordPress plugin to create custom page templates and database calls without having to use code. What are your thoughts on marketing this through the Warrior Forum?

    Thanks for your feedback.


  58. Great Post Mark.
    Sure glad I read the whole thing, and thanks for the Heads up because I always get tons
    of emails from the WF.

  59. I admire the size of your cahonas mark, and for deciding to come out with this post i applaud you. I must admit I have purchased approx 10 products from wso’s in the past year and just recently my inbox has been full of promotional offers for other wso products from the person who sold me his/her offer. in some case I unwittingly subscibed to 2 email promoters contact list just by purchasing their jointly promoted product. and yes after just a few weeks of bombardment from both of them i decided to get a refund for the product and unsubscribe from their crappy list.

    Not all wso promoters have done this but the majoity I believe are just out to swipe your cash from you. i personally believe in giving 100% customer satifaction and support wins the day and brings home the bacon in the long term.

  60. Thanks for this wonderful post. I have noticed the same thing on the forum and I just ignore the scam ones and never purchase them. I have noticed scammers have entered the warrior forum and since then I have been extra careful about the purchases I make because I buy a lot of stuff from the warrior forum.

  61. Mark, thanks for the info on WF. I have purchased offers from WF, but also noticed a lot of BS offers going on. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

  62. I have just read one of the blogposts bashing Mark (yes you Alison) let me remind you about some aspects. Shortcodes Deluxe and The Traffic Player are just two of the products that I am using on a daily basis. It is worth every cent and top quality. It has improved my sites and that of my clients. To say that Mark is riding on the same bandwagon is a pure lie. If you did buy every product of his then I do not understanf how you can say that these products are not quality???

  63. Yup — I’ve been caught as well…. especially avoid the back-linking plugins. I have bought a couple of offers from very convincing sales copy, only to be horribly disappointed. Most of the stuff is crap.

  64. Hey Mark, you forgot to mention that he now adds OFFLINE WSO OF THE DAY.
    Yeah that’s right, from some time ago he sends two mails a day.
    That must be annoying for everyone, but i use an email which is only for that purpose so i am not so annoyed about the spam im getting from him(and others) all the time.

    To be honest, i was thinking at the start that he is really promoting useful stuff, but after a while i realized its just scam. There are so many so called IM’s out there that are just trying to rip you off.
    So far i have bought just 3 things from WF, one being mobile templates, the other being a PDF course which did seem ok but i haven’t had the time to employ it yet, and the third one being a coaching program from Chris Munch.

    I am just trying to start with this marketing business so im still very cautious about what i buy from all those offers out there. I have a profitable business at the moment with my web design/development company but having another source of income wouldn’t be too bad, so if any of you guys can recommend some valuable places other than the WF forum for internet marketing newbies i would be grateful 🙂


  65. Paula Makes Money


    I’m glad you wrote this. You just wrote what lots of people were thinking but did not dare write.

    Why do you love Alison’s comment? Curious…

  66. I have been slapped down when I told the truth on the Warrior Forum,especially in PIPS by Patricia. It is good you made this post on your own blog . Thanks for doing the homework and exposing the results.

    • @ Will Stewart – just two weeks ago I spoke out on a wso thread selling a wp plugin and told everyone, ‘why buy this product, when another warrior is giving the same thing away for free, and I gave the link to their blog post. And I gave another link to the wordpress plugin repository, saying, you can get the same thing at wordpress for free too.

      Crazy that some people will do a wso for stuff you can get for free, and people will buy it.

      Anyways, I was banned for 3 days for posting links to free versions of the same thing on their wso. LOL

  67. @Mark,

    I can relate to what you are saying. What I do is rather simple: I hardly ever promote something to my lists unless I have really tried it myself and I have experienced that sellers are reliable and interested in helping their customers make money.

    So I have a small list of people I trust and that I work with. What is also really annoying is that sellers use your email for sending you all the other offers instead of only updates. The solution? I immediately unsubscribe if I experience that. And I never buy again from them.

    I think it would be a good idea to set-up a site and share experiences that customers have with sellers regarding customer services, support, refunds and other scams etc. That would probably hit the reputation of the bad apples.


  68. Get Social Service

    That is funny you said this about Mike Lantz and others who are just bombarding my email with craptastic offers from WSO. I was getting hit up every 2-3 hours with some “GREAT WSO” the next big thing in my inbox. I started realizing my time was being crapped away on ridiculous no good offers & trying to surf through my landfill of emails just to find what I was waiting/looking for and had to put everything on hold and just went on a unsubscribe frenzy from quite a few marketers emailing me. I have to still clean house from the Biblical amount of 51,646+ emails I have not read 🙁 It is so ridiculous how these guys email you every single day 1-3 times a day just to try and make a sale. It is a lot easier to actually have something of real value to sale or offer someone and make a sale. Sorry so long. Have a great day guys & gals.

  69. Your right there. I just got a wso for a so called new full proof way to get cpa cash and it was a crap pdf trying to claim you could put as many ads in any city you want on craigs list. Wrong ! You will be kicked off or ghosted a.s.a.p., you can only post 1 ad every 48 hours from your city to your city unless you use black hat methods. Worst part was the testimonials on the wso, now I know for a fact they were b.s. left by friends and past loyal customers and people looking to jack up there comment numbers. Thanks for putting it out there I knew I couldn’t be the only one seeing this.
    Kelly G.

  70. Hi Mark … nice of you to keep us decent people in the know. I use your product and it has worked for me. I tend to trust everyone very easily and I feel that when I have got scammed the person responsible has paid the bigger price for no wrong deed ever escapes a punishment befitting the crime. So I have stopped playing judge and jury over anything not relating to myself for the laws of life have their own ways of justice. It also allows me to remain calm under every circumstance. You seem an intelligent person .. take the time to read my book MasterMind … it can sky-rocket your success.

  71. I agree with Mark , those wso of the day products are been selected due to high traffic and not due to high quality, buyers should vote on product quality before qualify it to become a wso of the day product .. @ Alison I dont agree with you about Mark’s products ..yes Mark sometimes sound a bit harsh in his product support but i like most of his products its always updated and always working, I bought 3 of his products and still today I am getting update notification.

  72. Personally, my experience with WSO is that many of them are truly crap but like what Chris said, there are good and bad apples in every marketplace and it’s down to the buyer to beware what they buy. To be fair to WSO, if whatever you purchased is not to your expectation, you can always request for a refund and it will be given to you.

    In my case, I hadly pay attention to WSOs these days because many of the products are rehearse and if you dig down properly you will find that most of them are things you already know and many of the strategies hadly produce the results claimed by the vendor.

    The fact is that IM is turning into something else and every Tom, Dick and Harry are pushing products out just to make money by all means and unfortunately the people who suffer more are the newbies who cannot tell from right or wrong. No marketplace is free from what Mark is talking so none of them should be exempted.

    Just do business the way it should be done and you’ll not have to fall into the hands of scammers. But if you are always looking for the next shinning thing, then you are going to be a meal for the scammers.

    This is what happens to those looking for the next shinning object: http://nbmuk.com/the-rich-and-the-poor-scenerio/. Beware

  73. You read my mind Mark and much of what you say is true. The Warrior Forum is looking like Clickbank more and more very day now and I see signs that Digiresults and JVZoo are going the same way . I must admit though I bought some real gems on the W

  74. The entire WSO program is about incestuous relationships. If you’re not already an “insider” you can’t even get one listed. I signed up for the forum, worked to build my rep, then listed a WSO. It was refused because it was, as they say, “bluefart.” I love how they make any reference to anything even slightly off-color a “bluefart” product.

    A couple months afterward, I noticed someone had bought my product, (that had been successfully marketed elsewhere) renamed it and were selling it as a WSO. They even had the audacity to use my sales copy and to not even modify the code in my product. Of course I complained but, guess what? My complaint fell on deaf ears. I have yet to even get a response. The seller was an “insider.”

    No wonder so much of the Internet Marketing community has bad feelings toward the Warrior Forum. If I happened upon Allan Says and he was on fire, I wouldn’t pee on him to put him out.

  75. Well Mark, you’ve certainly opened a can of worms. For those of us who have matured beyond the glitz of “super, awesome, never-before-seen, one-click” and all the other superlatives used to push the latest greatest make money online products – we’ve recognized this for some time.

    It seems that since Clickbank so many marketers had become fed up with CB scams and failed products that the Warrior Forum and WarriorPlus is the new hangout for product creators looking to make a quick buck.

    Most of this stuff (in fact most IM products) are aimed at newbies who don’t know what they don’t know. As a seasoned marketer yourself, I’m sure you are familiar with the marketing psychologies.

    My question therefore is will you in fact no longer use WarriorPlus as a method of promoting your own products through JV’s? i.e. WP Optin Pro, Marketers Toolkit…

    While I can respect your intentions in this blog post, it appears that you’ve reaped your share of sales using these forums.

    • @ Bob C – Yes Bob, that is my plan, to not promote through Warriorplus any more, or Warrior Forum. In fact, I emailed on a graphics package last week, a good wso offer, but the warriorplus links were not working because of all the redirects going on. I normally get about 4000 clicks to a mailing, but only got half of that.

  76. I am currently working on a certain product that will be launced whenever it is finished. For me it is about over delivering on your product or service. But let me share this little WF story. It was quite shocking to me to realize that most WSO are purely created for the purpose of making money and not providing quality. I belonged to a certain “group” of marketers and it was (still is) openly shared that you simply build the one wso after the other and not about providing a product that actually delivers quality.

    It was made clear to me that I must just “build” a wso on whatever I want and that it is all about the sales page. I have seen many people “building” wso’s on aspects that they no nothing about and then selling it on WF. It is no longer about proving a service but purely about making money. Like I said before the WF is dying a slow death unless they stop all these nonsense to be sold.

    Clickbank did a cleanup not too long ago and it increased their visitors. WF is losing buyers slowly but surely, if they dont do something seriously, they are history. Yes there are good products but they are far between. Get rid of all those subscribtions and keep the ones you have learned to trust.

    Thanks Mark for giving the alternative Market Places, I will be trying them out on my launch

  77. Hey there & thanks! While agree that all is not what it may appear, I have had enormous success in meeting great marketers and products. And also I have been had – but not just here. It is a challenge to “check” out before purchasing. I have come to the conclusion – make sure your really really need the product/service.
    Then find a handful and stick with those IM successes. On one hand I agree and yet, on the other hand, I have met several awesome IM people. ? Your words are wise and worthy. Blessings.

  78. Mark,
    First, let me say “Congratulations” on your quality products. I discovered you quite by accident and am so very glad I did. So many vendors sell you something and you never hear from them again. This is particularly disconcerting when it relates to a wordpress product because wordpress is constantly upgrading it’s platform, leaving the door open to a need for plugin upgrades. YOU, on the other hand, was sending me information and an upgrade to the first product I bought from you the first week after the purchase. I have dumped more money than I care to on warrior offers that are crap. I have found JVZOO is a reliable source of better quality products. In fact, I think that is where I first saw your products. In any event, you are head and shoulders above so many vendors and I take notice of any new product you put out there for sale! Thanks, again! John M>

  79. Finally……Finally!!!

    You and a few other are the only people I really follow, I’ve had enough with the WOD.

    I remember someone trying to get me as an affiliate and they stated “It will be good, Mike Lantz already confirmed it to be WSO of the day”. And the WSO launch was set for a couple to a few days later!

    Thanks for the references to the other forums as well.


  80. (… to continue from my unfinished comment ) on the Warrior Forum but I have asked a refund many times , which was not always accepted. I bought some great programs on the WF and I see some of the authors of these programs giving there comment here on this page . The FTC still has a lot of work to do ! On Clickbank at least you know you will get your money back.

  81. I couldn’t agree with you more. In my mind “WSO” stands for “Wealth Separation Operation”, because all it does is separate me from my money!!

  82. Mark….

    As you know, I have bought MANY products from you, beginning with the higher ticket products like Tube Groove and Dominating Video, then more and more products as you continued to bring quality to the marketplace. And to your credit, you do indeed follow up with constant updates, along with instructions , easy to understand, as to how to set up the upgrades. After 18 months, you sent a couple of upgrades to my first two purchases. (Now if I was just more tech oriented and could utilize all that I have purchased.)

    I was a newbie , impressed with the concept of the warrior forum, and since I had a ton of products in my hard drive, purchased since 2006 and not really had/taken the time to learn enough “tech” to utilize them, buying “amazing” products for ten to twenty bucks seemed like a dream come true, so I bought hand over fist.

    Then I found out just how my inbox filled with DAILY offers from many of those from whom I bought products… worse than I’ve experienced in the past.

    Again, as Chris Munch says: “there are good apples and bad apples everywhere”

    Speaking of whom: Now THERE is a producer of products who gives much much more than I ever expected. I bought his Hook Pigeon product for not a whole lot of money, and was amazed at the amount of personal instruction webinars that he presented as follow up. Hours and hours. I got behind on two videos, but for the first time, I could see that he, like YOU , Mark, really cares that people are successful with his product. You have also provided personal and video training beyond what was expected. The only factor that I believe would help is for you to remember that not all of your customers are Tech Dudes and dudesses, and hence are unable to grasp …at least at the speed with which it’s presented…the many moves and clicks that are required.

    In this regard , all marketers could learn from the training videos for GVO products. Done in bite sized videos, 3 to 5 minutes for the most part, but repeated showings of the moves which were made, then a re cap video at the end to complete the training.
    You may make some enemies from this presentation, but if it brings a needed change for the better, then it may be worth it.

  83. Mark,

    Welcome to the real world !
    Money is not important but a lot of money is.
    And scammers will sell their mothers for $ 5 (dime sale )
    if not as WSO as some other name and in other places.
    Decent people is almost a dictionary term, as a happy
    customer of your products I can say that you maybe are
    the last one out of the dictionary.
    Please keep acting with your basic integrity and I will follow
    you wherever you go.



  84. Mark are one of the very few guys who have PERSONALLY answered and assisted me on some questions and assistance needed on some of his products. That is what it is all about. Not just selling a product but actually building a business relationship. THANKS MARK

  85. While I don’t plan to get involved in this discussion, I just want to make one comment…

    Everything Mark said here has to be taken with a grain of salt.

    He came to me awhile back asking if I would allow sellers on HIS new forum (yes, to compete with the Warrior Forum) to use WSO Pro and the WarriorPlus system. I declined, since we only support the WarriorForum at this time for various (mainly technical) reasons.

    So, Mark is just mad that I turned him down. If he really hated what the Warrior Forum, WarriorPlus, WSO Pro and WSO of the Day was all about, why would he ask to be a part of it?

    Pure hypocrisy…

    • @ Mike Lantz

      Welcome, and here is my exact email to you:

      ———— START————–

      Hi Mike, just a couple things:

      1. I am waiting for the remainder of my wso sales that went to your paypal account. If you can send the balance,
      that would be great.

      2. I am starting a special offers forum and will be kicking it off very soon. I personally have about 4,000 affiliates on
      my list, and so I thought I’d approach you to add my forum to W+ as it does to the WF. I thought having 2 options
      would be good for you.

      3. I made a post on WF stating that you are recommending scams and products with fake proofs. This is a fact.
      Thus, I will be giving a forum that will not be scammy products, which is what is happening more and more on
      WF…believe it or not. It will all come out very soon.

      Here is a WSO of the Day you promoted:


      I hope you join me, and diversify your marketing efforts.



      I gave you the opportunity, and window, to come to your senses. I clearly told you that you promote scams. You decided to continue promoting as you are, which is a shame.

  86. Hi Mark,

    I’m just wondering why you “approve” digiresults, JVZoo and ForumSpecialOffers.com over WSOs?

    Digiresults and JVZoo are affiliate platforms, exactly the same as WarriorPlus. The only difference is the way they split payments. A huge percentage of both their sales come from WSOS, sellers who don’t want to use WarriorPlus because of the way it splits payments.

    I also know Bobby Walker and James Sides quite well, the owners of ForumSpecialOffers and whilst they do obviously only put quality products on their site (because they personally launch each one) they operate in much the same way as WSOs.

    They partner with Andy Fletcher at Digiresults and they relationship is very similar to Mike Lantz and the WarriorForum.

    All in all, I think there is nothing wrong with any of the setups. Yes there are bad products, bad sellers and even some that are outright scams…but for you to blacklist an entire forum is irresponsible in my opinion.

    I sell WSOs, I have had multiple WSOTDs and I like to think I put out quality products and training. My concern is that by posting opinions like this, which are very sweeping and generic, you will damage the businesses of sellers who do try to offer a good experience for buyers.

    The are scammers and bad products on every platform I can think of. I firmly believe that the Warrior Forum is one of the safest places you can buy Internet marketing products online. Do your research, don’t get sucked in by hypey copy, only buy from vendors with established reputation and with a refund policy.

    For you to suggest that I shouldn’t buy anything from the forum I feel is quite patronising to your readers, it’s to assume that we aren’t intelligent enough to spot a scam, or simply ask for a refund when things go wrong.


    • @ Simon – Respectfully, I do not know you, but it appears to me that you are a Warrior Forum fanatic who derives all of your income from maintaining a relationship with WF and the inner circle JV crap? I am independent, and do not have to rely on JVs for income, so I am free to speak as I feel moved. I also feel you have never placed yourself “in the shoes” of the average newbie or customer, but only look from your WF wso creator perspective.

      As for “WF being the safest place to buy products online,” are you joking me?

  87. Personally I dispensed with ALL marketers sending WSO emails months ago. The IM niche is unfortunately saturated with scammy products but that simply means the cream rises to the top and stays. You only need a few minutes in the CB marketplace to see all those shiny objects of yesterday sitting in the zero gravity graveyard. For me there is enough money to be made in other niches (health, weight loss, relationships/dating, etc) to not need to bother with the crap that lives in the IM niche.

  88. Mike
    I am glad u opened this can of worms. lots of people will be having a LOT to say now. Keep on providing quality with your products (like u do) and on your forum and I will be there. Please just prevent nonsense to be sold there

    PS: Is this your new forum http://www.wsoforum.com/

  89. Thanks for that info….
    I almost got sucked in but then realized something is wrong don’t do it…

  90. Hi Mark,

    Nothing changes other than every 6 months another bunch of disillusioned newbies leaves the niche. I got involved in the IM niche in 2005 and released my first product in 2006. After a large survey in 2007 by Mike Filsaime, I was given the results and his interpretation. Most people stick it out for 6 months or less and then they’re gone, burned out and in debt.

    Whose fault is it? Why it’s theirs. As I always say if you want someone to blame just take a look in the mirror. We all make our own way in this world and we all make our own decisions. Just like you I’ve looked at some WSOs and been unable to believe my eyes that anyone would part with money for it and yet there they all are, handing it over and saying how cool it is and that they can see the results immediately. What a pile – especially with SEO type products.

    One in particular still sticks in my mind. A plugin that auto-interlinked blog posts. Good idea, useless implementation as it used javascript to generate the links. Search spiders don’t see things like we do in our browsers and don’t see javascript links as they’re rendered in the browser after the rest of the page has drawn (that was actually one of the selling points of one of my own scripts). I asked two pre-sales questions about this and neither of them were answered in any useful way. And yet there were people handing over their cash for a product that plain did not work as advertised.

    Part of the problem here is the social proof of people saying “yeah it’s great”, but these are mostly newbies looking at a bright shiny new object and they’re simply not qualified enough to make a good judgement call. Think of these comments as the difference between Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica – one run by largely unqualified volunteers, the other using paid sources of information from experts in their fields.

    It’s simple to avoid WSO buying mistakes though.

    o If something sounds too good to be true it is.
    o Know your own mind and don’t get drawn in by the hype.
    o Are you REALLY going to use that product in your business?
    o Do you TRUST the person telling you to buy it? (How qualified are they?)
    o Isn’t there something better you should be doing right now? Like building your own business? 😉
    o A load of other “keep it real” guidelines that you could probably come up with yourself with a few minutes of thought.

    It’s better to stick to the tried and tested principles that work rather than buy into everything. These are “Product Creation>>Traffic>>List Building”. If you focus on *good* product creation and run and promote your affiliate scheme, traffic will come, your list will grow and so will your business. You don’t need every ebook and video course going – most of them are rehashes. And it all takes time. Nothing happens instantly. Just don’t be a sucker to yourself guys and gals.

    All the best,

    -Frank Haywood

  91. Hi Mark

    you are completely right on the spot. It´s almost unbelieveable how much email some guys send me every day.
    Here is a great Email that one other warrior (WillR ?) posted a few days ago, that he sents to these daily “WSO Spammers”. Enjoy 🙂

    Hey (name),

    A lot of what you send me is good stuff and I’d like to keep receiving it.

    But there’s a problem, and it’s getting worse And I’ll bet a huge portion of your list feels the same way …

    My in-box is BOMBED every day with affiliate offers. Everyone who’s ever supplied me with a report or a product… you included… seems to believe that entitles them to use my email in-box as a never-ending, free income stream. It’s like the more times they can stick every conceivable internet marketing product known to mankind under my nose… often several times!…. the more chance they’ll have of raiding my bank account!

    Now I know “the money’s in the list”. But this “tactic” is ugly and so obviously more about YOUR affiliate commissions than it is about MY needs and interests! Daily emails from some people (not necessarily you)… and sometimes multiple in the same day… shows absolutely no respect for my intelligence or my time.

    So let me tell you what happens…

    I don’t usually “UNSUBSCRIBE” because I’m very interested in I.M. Plus I’m a BUYER and I know that in amongst the crap, there are some diamonds and some information or updates on the product I bought from you..

    But when my IN-box starts looking like a JUNK box, I just have to delete the lot. I can’t read them all and I just don’t have the time or inclination to filter out the crap,


    YOU filter the crap and send me one email per week (max!) of the BEST material you’ve found. I’ll look forward to receiving that email, and because I’ll know you’re not wasting my time, I’ll read it.
    YOU’LL know that if it’s genuinely good…. and that I’ve read it… there’s a damn good chance I’ll buy through your link.

    Obviously, emails about products I’ve bought are always welcome. But they seem to be VERY rare.

    So, bottom line, I’m suggesting that you… and every other supplier who has my email address and sends MORE than one email per week…. have two choices….

    1. Send me one special email per week of the best material you’ve found. That will save ME time and get YOU sales.

    2. Keep sending the current volume of unfiltered emails. I’ll keep deleting them (because I don’t have the time to find the gems) and eventually I’ll just get the ****s with it all and unsubscribe.

    I understand that you’ve worked hard to build up your list. And I have no problem with you using it to make money.

    But the moment I feel that MY time and interests are overwhelmed by YOUR need to make affiliate sales…

    … I’m outta here.

    Hope that’s useful! Respond if you’d like to, but the only response I REALLY want is less affiliate emails. If you can do that, I’ll keep listening and buying from you.


  92. Mike Kristiansen

    This article, very informative, I usually find something a little dubious about most of the offers, it’s just better to find solid marketing tools elsewhere than take chances on cheap offers with clever upsells. Thanks Mark

  93. Very few IMers have had the guts to make such a statement against scammers. It’s not only in WSOs this stuff goes on. Most every promotion is based on commerce, not quality of product. I wish you the best.

  94. Mark:

    I suspected as much. Thank you for giving voice to a growing suspicion.


  95. Hi Mark,
    I think many people fall in the WSO trap. There are people that have great ideas, and just need to focus and finish them instead of getting distracted with the next big thing. One of the things I try to tell my self when I see any internet marketing offer hit my inbox, is “You already know how to make money, you have proven that, so stay focused, and stay on track”. I know if I let myself go off and read an offer, any offer I will spend the next hour or two researching it.

    Then if I buy it I have to invest the time to login, read, watch videos, then try implement it. The only way you can find the time for that is to pull off what you are currently working on. And if you don’t spend the time to implement the steps of the new system. you are not going to make a penny.

    I think that WSO type of list are bad for internet marketers that already have plans to implement. If you keep letting your self get distracted by every new thing, instead of finishing and launching the thing you are currently working on you are never going to get anywhere.


    Roger Seher

  96. I actually ment Mark instead of Mike (in my previous post)

  97. Great post, that’s why I presonally test each of the offers I promote to my lists. Sometimes it takes a little while – and I can’t therefore be a part of all the competitions 🙂 But no problem, I’d better test it myself – before I let my lists know. You’d be surprised how many of the offers (and WP plugins) do not work that way they should! 😉 I use to contact the creators to fix this and that… but you know what – sometimes I’m offered a refund 😉


  98. Here are some basic rules the WSO forum should adopt:

    1) Ban dimesales – this way people can take their time to evaluate a product without losing money

    2) Require all afiliates to clearly indicate this when the post anything on a WSO thread. Many of the people telling us what a great product it is are probably making money off it.

    3) Ban OTOs – all offers should be in the thread so the user can make an informed purchase decision.

    4) All marketers should offer a separate list for product updates only. Do you?

    Not likely to happen, but a group of marketers could get together and for a ‘guild’ where you pledge a set of standards to use a guild badge. I have heard many marketers complaining like this, but none ever really do anything about it. Buyers would be sceptical at first, but if they see it really making a difference, they might start to favor the ethical marketers.

  99. What’s kind of funny is that the WF has created it’s own gooroos…especially in the offline consulting and Facebook categories. These jerks keep turning out the products, some as often as one a week. And yes, most of the plugins they offer for WP or FB are available for free.

    Otherwise, they create a 17 page report claiming to offer the newest secret tactics to making money. But these new secret tactics turn out to be rehashed crap or something that worked for them once so they wrote it up, created a passel of phony PayPal results and sell it for $9.97.

    And how aboiut all of the Facebook solutions that were selling recently on the WF…interesting that none of the sales letters mentioned that they wouldn’t work (or at best wouldn’t work as well) when Facebook moved everyone to Timelines. But they had to get it on the WF and sell them to unsuspecting newbies.

    Oh, and can’t forget to mention the plethora of bad PLR that is sold on the WF. Go to Tradebit, spend $5.99 on a bad PLR course, redo the cover on Fiverr, otherwise sell it as is on a dimesale. Give 100 percent commissions and get it named as WSO of the day and add 2000 names to your list. What a scam.

    I even have three or four marketers subscribed who email me at least half a dozen times a day telling me about the latest gee-gaw on the WF. What’s really hilarious is that they claim to be buying everything they are promoting and putting it to work in their businesses. Only thing is, their businesses are totally devoted to promoting the WF and the latest WSO…so what need do they have for the products they promote?

    You know, I could go on and on and on but that’s about enough for now. Couldn’t agree more. The WF, WSOs, etc. are all not worth the effort to buy the ripoff products. I also question JVZoo and the Digital Point Forum. Don’t know much about Digi-Results.

  100. While I agree with everything said about the Warrior Forum, I have to agree with several other comments here. JVZoo and DigiResults are just the new marketplace and no different in my opinion. I don’t see any stricter guidelines or better positioning on any of these. I have gotten some fantastic deals on the WSO. Few and far between I will admit but many that I use everyday in my offline business. Stuff that only a few years ago I would have had to pay several hundred dollars to get. So the word here is be careful. Ask for a refund when it isn’t as advertised and do your due diligence.
    I buy and use just about everything you put out Mark so I thank you for that and I met you on the WF. I think all these other marketplaces are quickly becoming the same so I don’t see much difference. The people made it WSO of the Day by buying the stupid thing.
    I get sick and tired of all the dozens of emails I get promoting this and that. I promote too. I am careful what I promote. I review it and try my best to give a proper perspective at cc Studio News but I can miss some things too. So to give up on a system that has inexpensively given me dozens of tools I use daily in my offline business, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    I do agree that Mark should have the responsibility to check WSO of the Days but the only criteria there is money. Most sales – wins the popular vote. I know Todd as well, let that be a lesson to all of us that promote. Make sure we’ve checked it out thoroughly
    My Suggestion, Mark makes enough money, he should hire several critics to go through each WSO before launch to verify authenticity and proof. Then we would have something to depend on. Since I don’t see that happening in the words of Hill Street Blues:
    Hey, let’s be careful out there!

  101. Why Chris you are wrong and why Mark you are right.
    The very basic truth (based itself on integrity) that Mark is springing from is what made the downfall of Frank Kern.
    Frank Kern support guys (not frank kern) were emailing the list of Frank Kern (not paid products but freebie optin list) with offers from other IM gurus (exactly like mike lantz does). One GOOD day I saw an offer which by the end I understood was PURELY SCAM like the nigerian scams (the nigerian scam is a case study for internet idiots in France) and then I realized he (frank kern) had let bad people (from his own support team) promot the worse horseshit to his own list and these are going to trigger the worse for him. The rest of the story you know … any public news of Frank ?

  102. Studies have been done over many years that clearly show – no matter how worthless the product only about 20% of people will even ask for a refund. It doesn’t matter what the sales pitch claims, all that matters is getting people to click the submit button. So…buyer beware.


  103. Wolfgang Bloomfield

    Hi Mark, Like you I recieve emails from people that I think that I can trust, if I start to recieve offer after offer I very quickly unsubscribe, as I get too many emails anyway.

    As far as Warrior offers go, I dont even take a look at them, you see the same people making testimonials over and over again, it’s time for Internet marketers to start being a little more honest with people and not just push crap at them just to make some money.

  104. Wow wow and wow again! I know a lot of the products sold there are crap but this truly takes the cake. I saw that WSO of the day too, glad I didn’t purchase it. Where are the Internet Marketers with integrity? Thanks for shedding some light on these scam artists.

  105. Hey Mark,

    I want to thank you for speaking out and voicing your opinion. There aren’t enough big marketers out there making good money voicing their true opinions for the sake of tarnishing their income.

    I have been on the forum for a couple of years now and have purchased a ton of stuff. Yes, I do get trigger happy when I see a great sales page. lol I agree that there are some good apples in there, but there is a ton of crap. I seem to be on everyone’s list and am amazed by how 98% of these marketers are promoting in a way that is all wrong. All they care about is what their list can do for them. I live by the belief that you must provide a TON of REAL value to your list. Unless you have made money off of a WSO or you can back up with great detail and value why you feel it is an exceptional product, don’t promote it to me.

    There are a few marketers that get it. When I get an email from them, it is usually to educate me by giving something away for free that has value or keeping me up to date with the latest trends going on. They will usually only promote a product once per week, but sometimes only once every 2 weeks or so. And it is ONLY because they truly feel that it will benefit their list. I am amazed at some of the bigger marketers out there that all they do is sell, sell, sell. It’s quite sad actually since I am no longer on their list and I know they really know their stuff.

    Just a few weeks ago, there was a product that was promoted on the WF that would search for the best Amazon products to promote. That was great and all until I watched the video and realized that his software’s main purpose was to locate the product and the best BRAND NAME domain name. What? He was clearly violating brand trademarks by telling people that it was ok to build Amazon sites using the brand name in your main URL. Some people questioned it, but he had a ridiculous answer as to why it was ok. It’s not and you can get sued over it. And guess what? It got WSO of the Day! Go figure!

    Then I opened up a thread asking this very question of whether you can use a brand’s name in your main URL? I wanted to hear what people had to say. I mean, isn’t that what a forum is for? The thread was very active the day that I started it and the consensus was that this is violating trademarks. Nothing new to me. Well, without notice, my thread was closed by one of the moderators. Why? Because I was talking about this product and questioning the ethics behind it and plus it was doing well and it was also given WSO of the Day!

    This was a wake-up call for me with the validity behind the WSO of the Day. I take a much closer look at them and I only purchase from very reputable people. I still purchase stuff on the WF since, like I said, there is still good products from honest marketers. Bottom line here is don’t just jump at any offer because the product creator says that it will only be open till a certain date or that you will make $18,438.73 (I’m so tired of this tactic). I don’t play into that game. If you contact the product creator after it has been closed, most will let you purchase it. Yes, it might be more expensive, but you will have saved so much time not wasting it on all the crap that we all purchase and only buying because their is REAL proof, from REAL genuine marketers.

  106. Excellent post and I totally agree. I completely disregard the WSO of the Day.

    I only buy from people I know and even those I watch so as to be sure the product is
    in their line of expertise, else I am even weary of those.

    Keep up the great info…

    Randy Rowles
    Calgary, Canada

  107. Its about time someone called them out at Warrior Forum. I had purchased some backlinks offer myself a few months ago for my sites that werent ranking well and guess what? After using one of those automated backlink WSO’s I bought, my site was de-indexed. Now I have to wait 3-6 months for my site to reappear if it ever reappears. You really need to be careful what you buy over there at Warrior Forum

  108. Nice job Mark.
    I’ve spent a thousand or more at the warrior forums over the last year. About 20% good information I did not already have. Some purchases for plugins, some of which were very good, some of which I don’t use as they caused conflicts or got outdated fast.
    At least 80% of the info I found in WSO’s I bought I have already received in other products or free info from people like you that give away more value than is often paid for at forums like the warrior forum.
    I too have bought products from you and am getting updates over a year later whereas I often get zero support from the sellers on the warrior forum such as a couple of facebook programs involving a wizard. The only magic there was wondering how someone could sell something that looked like it wasn’t even done yet and offered no support.
    That should make people like Mr Munch pay attention as when you’re involved in promotions with people that don’t offer value or support it reflects back on you. I am leery of emails of offers from Chris now just becuase of association with others I feel are just scam artists.
    You once also kicked me in the teeth once in the early stages of a program working on with some others that wasn’t ready to go yet. Good learning experience. It’s helped shaped a much better program we’re about to launch to consumers (not an IM product).
    My email box is stuffed with garbage from the wart forum every day and I’ve seen that product sellers must be selling lists as I get offers from people I’ve never heard of following every purchase I make.
    All good reasons to spend some time mass unsubscribing which will more than pay off in the increase in extra time and focus I’ll for my business.

  109. Yes You are absolutely correct!!!

    I unsubscribed from WSO of the day some months ago. There was and still is, I believe a load of Doo Doo being sent out by the Warrier Forum.

    This is a great pity because the Warrier Forum is being severely undermined by Lanz’s behavior. The Forum will very quickly lose it’s status at this rate.

    What the legitimate market needs is somehow to block the scammer’s IP addresses, find their proxies and block those as well!! Some hope eh?

    Geoff Norman

  110. andrew zubriczky

    Thanks Mark, for standing up!

    I have seen the scammers myself; up close and personal. Fortunately, as a former Private Investigator and Corporate Fraud buster; I can see thorough their deceptive half baked truths, and sleight of hand deals from the bottom of the deck. You called it, as you saw it!

    Good for you!

    There are unethical and greedy business people in every profession and within all ranks of society.

    Business ethics, morality, and our laws, demand a thorough house cleaning; otherwise, the public will immediately lose confidence. Soon enough, others will come forward with their own sad tales of failed promises and betrayal.

    The domino effect has just begun.

    Stay tuned….

  111. yeah, your explanation is very clear.
    after one year a half i always buy the WSO products, then i realize that there are some products are crap. and right now i always thinking hundred times before buying WSO products.
    Thanks for your post Mark, i hope you always share your experience to the newbie like me.

  112. Mark,

    I really don’t want to argue with you on this, but your posted email proves my point. You wanted to integrate Warrior Plus into your new offer forum – and I didn’t oblige. You’re jealous that I don’t want to work with you on your sub-par forum and thusly have vented your frustrations on your blog. The fact is, I also know Mark, that you don’t have many JV partners and the people that you have worked with you’ve royally pissed off. I know all about how you “work” with people, Mark.

    Calling me a scammer on your little blog won’t change the fact that you’re a lonely man with nothing but to do but spread your vitriole. I’m so very sorry that you were neglected as a child or whatever it is that made you this way. You should learn some basic manners though. Just because someone turns you down for a business proposal – you don’t have to take it personally and start hurling insults. It shows a bit of petulance on your part and I’d hope from now on, if you want people to like and work with you, that you think twice before doing so.

    But like I said, I really don’t feel like arguing with you. Whether you think I’m a scammer or not is something that I won’t give another single thought to. Good luck with your forum.


    • @ Mike Lantz –

      Sure, I gave you a way out of your madness, but you decided to continue the on-the-fence criminal behaviour. I gave you an olive branch and way out.

      Why would I be pissed? I have a great business. I’m simply telling facts, and you are trying to defend yourself. I told you via personal email, you are digging your own grave.

  113. Hi Mark,
    thanks for taking up this issue I’ve complaining about a snobbish attitude by some warriors and as you said it’s lot sheet there and big problems to get a refund, even CB is not checking the quality of the products so they are also involved in making the quality and reputation of Internet bad. Once again I’m happy that you brought up this problem with warrior Forum and if you are not approved by the vendor you are in there list and they send all offers to you. Please explain this unethical behavior Mike Lantz, for me it’s SPAM. And you Mike Lantz are the head of this bad behavior!

  114. Wow…. so THIS is how to get people to post comments on your blog! Lol… I know I’ve heard of it, “Controversy” is the key factor in this sort of thing. My husband used to like to read the posts in the online newspaper where people would rant or rave about this or that going on around the world.

    The posts or news articles that get the most comments are always those that have the most controversy. People are so passionate about certain subjects they can’t help but add their .02 cents.

    Personally, I just do not think it’s possible to create a 100% “safe-haven” online. I have people who buy my product, never even bother to “read or watch the videos” and instantly ask for a refund. On the flip side, I have purchased plenty of WP Plugins that never did what they were suppose to do, or tried methods that never worked for “me”, but in some cases, it’s really a matter of the inability to foresee every possible coding issues with IE, FF or GC, Windows, Mac or Linex… and in some cases what works well for one person, may not work for most.

    Just the other day a gal emailed me for a refund and said, “I was looking for a product that would help me make money by outsourcing to someone ELSE to do the work”… I responded and asked, “Um… did you WATCH the videos?” There are 5 that specifically show this LIVE… She emailed me back and said, “You are a blessing! Thank you so much!” …

    You see… there are always two sides of the coin. Had I not mentioned to this gal WHERE to FIND what was right before her eyeballs, she may have thought I had scammed her. But in the end, perhaps after she had a better day offline, she realized it was there all the time.

    Yes, there are scams, yes, people can be evil and yep, a lot of people have really baaaaaaad attitudes. On the other hand, I have met some awesome people in the Warrior forum that I would never have found had I not been a member.

    And Hurray for yet another Platform as the one thing I agree on 100% is that no one…. should have a monopoly online for anything – Just look at Google! >>>growl<<< just wait, they are going to take over Facebook by the end of 2013 for sure, if not sooner. Oh and BOOOOOO on Walmart! They treat their workers like crap and donated only $6,000 out of billions of profits to charity.

    Thanks Mark for Helping Us See How to Get TONS of Traffic out of Controversy!
    Chrisi :))

  115. Mark you are right on with your thoughts. I appreciate you and your products over the years.

    Another way I “flush out” scams or worthless products while on the WF is wait a full day or two after a new WSO comes out and I come back to visit the WSO page and click on the last page of posts. It’s so interesting to see the “scammy” products get many complaints or charges of no support of their product or how the feedback on the product from new buyers shows that it doesn’t work. It shows then, that the product “author” either never used the technique taught or practically made up the system. I stay away from those even before considering purchasing.

    Overall, I totally agree with you that it’s time to find other places where we can find legitimate products and services.

    Keep up the great work!

  116. Something I had been observing too, but on your your advice to unsubscribe
    gets a little difficult when that list pertains to software we may have purchased,
    and to unsubscribe we would lose any software updates.
    Yes, I get blasted with offer after offer from these same lists.
    I always have a ton to delete. Unread of course.

    Personally, I would prefer anyone selling WSO’s to have a dedicated list for
    software updates only. It’s very annoying they don’t.

    What do you think.

  117. The only reason I responded to this is that Mark’s emails don’t go straight to my spam folder. One of about five people I’ve bought stuff from on the Warrior Forum (Forum) and Warrior Plus Forum (Plus) who I respect.

    I would go so far as to say that the system over there is set up for fraud and there is no enforcement by the Forum or the Plus Forum owners. I hope that the FTC comes down on them.

    Have you ever tried to get a refund from a scammer on the Forum or the Plus Forum?

    About half the time, the only way to can get a refund from the scammers, is to post crap about their offer on their Forum. Then the Forum guy talk to the Plus guy who talks to the producer of the product who talks to his affiliate.

    Most of the social proof there is spoofed.

    The problem with the Warrior Forum is many fold:

    – Even promising products are mostly left for dead after a short time.
    – Most guys who actually might have had some integrity, end up whoring their list for the buck or for some I scratch your back your scratch my back deal
    – The owners of the two forums have set it up like there is no material connection between the two, as if that might protect them from fraud allegations. But does any one think that, say, Honda America, isn’t actually accountable to Honda in Japan?
    – There is very little integrity build into the system. No real social proof, no complaint system, no policing . . .

    I would actually be happy and have faith in our justice system if the Attorney General of a state or states would look into the system over there.

    All of us in IM appreciate the little guy, the entrepreneur, the smart kid or adult who wants to say, share, and sell something to the rest of us with the idea of gaining some credibility and a following. The Warrior forum isn’t that and wasn’t really set up to be that and has already tuned out to be a huge waste of time.


  118. Just to clarify, I didn’t post that last comment that says “Mike Lantz” is the author. Hopefully Mark can see this and delete it.

    This is the problem with anonymous comments, I guess.

    Whoever you are, please just use your own name – or some fake name – to post your thoughts. Don’t pretend you are someone else.

  119. Bingo! I came to this post because I’m still on your list. I’m still on your list because you only promote
    quality products when you do promote. You don’t do like most, and that’s cram crappy offers down our throats.
    And I thank you for that, and for telling it like it is.
    Steve Shaw

  120. I agree there is a lot of crap on the Warrior Forum, but there is a good reason for it. It is a Special Offers forum, not a true marketplace. You get what you pay for and almost everything starts at less than $10 so how can you complain really? It is only being used as a true “Special Offer Forum” by about 20% of the people doing WSO’s. Everyone else seems to be using it as their Primary sales source and most aren’t even developing a front end for their websites half the time. They just setup a quickie OptimizePress/ Wishlist Member Membership site.

    Clickbank has been working hard to clean up their Marketplace and they still have crap. I love the changes CB has made as I try to be an ethical marketer myself. My products are all listed through CB right now and I don’t have an issue with their upgrades. I only do WSO’s when I have an actual Special Offer I want to run. This is supposed to be the heart of the WSO system which Alan Says has let go completely. Why? They are making money hand over fist. But this is not a bad thing. It is a forum and everyone has the ability to do 2 things. Write an honest review on the products they buy via the Forum and to get a refund if the product doesn’t meet their expectations. You can’t fault Alan too much, the forum is highly popular and it seems to be doing exactly what he wants it to do.

    I have a love/ hate relationship with the WSO Forum. I love some of the offers and the platform for easily having a few thousand people see your special offer. I have only run 3 WSO’s myself in the last 2 years and it has been about 8 months since my last. I do plan on releasing another this week actually, but it is an actual Special Offer on a high quality plugin that is already sold at a much higher price. This comes to what I hate about the WSO Forum. I hate how it has devalued digital marketing products. It can take thousands of dollars in development costs to create high quality software and plugins. This stuff is not cheap and yet people in the Warrior Forum expect sellers to start selling these expensive tools at $7 and sellers have and will continue to do it. I talked to one seller who just ran a WSO a few weeks ago and he said he made $3000 of his entire WSO promotion. Even though he did $18,000 in sales! The costs of his software, his graphics and site creation, member area, hosting, video hosting for tutorials, etc., all cost him $15,000 to create. Nobody in marketing should be spending $15,000 to make $3000, but the WSO Forum has made it tough on some guys to sell at any kind of market price. This is also why you see very low level plugins being sold every week by some guys. It is easier and cheaper to pump them out and if they can only sell at $7-$17, they have to be smart as no sales are ever guaranteed. There are 2 sides to this story for sure.

    I mean, where else are you going to see a product where the creator says you can make $10,000 per month with it and then sell it for $7. If you can really make that much money with a product, you should not be able to buy it for $7. I make those claims with my current product and I won’t come close to that. The real issue in the Warrior Forum is the guys who are coming out with a new huge WSO ever week to 2 weeks. I have been developing content and videos for a long time and this is very tough to do even with a full time staff. So you have to be really gun shy about anyone who seems to be able to release new plugins and other products every other week. They cannot possibly be developing themselves, nor can they be the experts they claim to be. It is hard to find time to be a doer and a teacher at the same time. With all the tasks in site and content development, unless you are outsourcing, you are not getting it done as fast as some of these guys are. Impossible.

    People are flocking from Clickbank to JVZoo, Warrior Plus, and Digiresults for a reason. Because they can lie their asses off about what their product can do. I have 2 very good friends who flat out told me that is why they won’t market on CB anymore. Its too tough to get a Sales Letter approved by Clickbank. In my opinion, if you are afraid of a little scrutiny on your product, then you shouldn’t be selling it in the first place. I welcome it.

    I agree with you Mark on 90% of your post here. I have a 10% point of indecision because of the email you sent to Mike Lantz. I don’t know what your intent was, but he seems to make a valid point. Mike is just doing what we all do. He is running his business. I don’t fault him for that. I will keep my opinion to myself beyond that.

    • @ Mike Johnson – Thanks for the comments. My email to Mike Lantz clearly spells out the issue and I even told him bluntly, ‘you are perpetuating a scam.’ So, whatever.

  121. I totally agree. I have bought so many crappy products from the WF in the last few months I have just stopped buying for the most part. There are a few good Warriors left who have quality products but otherwise, the rest is just crap. One OP said their product was beta and would have a lot of issues and this was why they put it up on the WF first but my questions is, why should I have to pay for beta products? If Lantz and the rest of the WF guru’s keep letting this kind of thing go on they will only facilitate their inevitable demise.

  122. Hi Mark,

    You said the following –

    “I should write another post entitled: “How you know your guru is out to scam you.” It is easy to spot. They have absolutely ‘no plan’ for your success, other than taking your money and putting it into their own pocket. They are all over the map in their email marketing to you.”

    That said it all. I am about to unsubscribe to many marketers as they never send an e-mail without promoting something on the WF. I was a “Professional Buyer” and now I am broke and the Gurus are rich.

    I own some of your products. I like your style and appreciate the freebies you offer newbies like me. I also like that you tell it like it is.



  123. This is why black hat forums offer wso’s for free to download; because people are fed up with getting crap products and they know that most people will not ask for a refund of $7 as they feel too ashamed to do so. Just the other day, I got an email from Mike Lantz for “wso of the day.” About an hour later that wso was closed due to a faked screenshot and about 5 minutes after that, he was blasting his list with a new “wso of the day.”

    Then I thought to myself, “oh brother” and unsubscribed. No, He does not test out the products he promotes; he just picks ones that he thinks will generate him the largest and fasted commissions. And it is true about being insiders on the forum. The top wso sellers promote each others products and then go to the threads to endorse them for big sales. Just look at the latest BTF 2012 product. It was heavily endorsed by wso sellers and the owners asked all of their members to go to the thread and endorse it, as well.

    But you could not tell by the sales copy what it was actually about. There were a few questions on the thread about if the product generated sales mostly by affiliate commissions or by selling services or products to others, but none of the questions were answered by the owners, yet the owners’ claim was “$831,962.23 earned off of tiny little one-page blogs…” but the people who had endorsed the product had not earned their money off blogs, but rather by selling their services and products to others, so really misleading advertising claims. And the owners of the product made a few posts about how their product creates blogs that make $500 per month. So, according to their sales copy and advertising claims, you would have to create 1,660 blogs making $500 per month to attain that level of income (but, according to the posts, that is not how the top earners made their money).

    If we all would just quit looking for that quick-buck program and realize that big sales take time and work. But, sadly, that is why there is such a proliferation of these products – because that is what people WANT to buy. No one buys a product that says “Make $300 per month as an affiliate in only 4 months time.” The whole IM industry is littered with crap products, but that is because it is quick, fast cash for the owners and they know they can turn around and keep doing it time and time again to all the newbies that come on board every month. There is always a new set of ignorant people to sell to.

    Even the bigger names that do not sell off the warrior forum do not tell the real truth. Just last year, there was a product released by an Aussie marketer (who tries hard to appear as “the good guy”) where he tells his students that he only markets “ethical” affiliate products and rejected a male enhancement product. Meanwhile, his big $$$ making affiliate site is loaded with all sorts of male enhancement products that he backlinks heavily. So, there are not many in this business that truly are honest, even though many pretend to be. However, Mark, you come closest to one of the good ones. Enough rambling……..

  124. Mark for President …….. 🙂

    Did u guys actually know that some negative remarks or complaints on products actually gets removed, a IM friend of mine took a screenshot of a negative remark (complaint) and the next day it was gone ???

    • @ Hilgard – Ya, that happened to me and I got banned for 3 days, because I gave a link where people can get the same thing for free on wordpress plugin directory. 🙂

  125. Hey Mark,

    I loved your work with Short Code Deluxe, that plugin is awesome!

    With that being said ;), I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been “preaching” about how bad the WSO forum is for awhile now. Frankly, I don’t touch it if I can help it (buying and selling). I NEVER sell there and very rarely buy, the only time I do is when that product isn’t available for sell anywhere else (Like Easy WP SEO).

    After this post, you just got yourself another life long follower 🙂

    Matthew Roe

  126. Once for all the WSO marketplace is, is like selling on the Jerusalem Temple ground. I wrote it back 6 months ago on jake and gavin blog.

  127. Thanks, Mark, for having the moral fiber to step out and say something. Yer a brave soul. It’s one of the things I like about you and why I have bought many of your products, and will continue to take seriously, what you say about a product. You’re a breath of fresh air in an atmosphere fast becoming unbreathable.

  128. Excuse my spelling above; should read “fastest commissions” not fasted commissions

  129. Here we are on a blog talking about a forum that was created about a forum.

  130. shane Massingham

    Hey Mark,

    While on the subject of WSO problems, I would luv for you to check and reply to your support desk.
    I had a problem weeks ago and have left 2 tickets now.

    Shane Massingham

  131. Mark,
    I love your integrity. You put it out there! Your products & support are great. That’s why I have followed you for several years trusting you, depending on you, buying nearly all of your products!

    Other experienced marketers might want to follow your example. Your list is full of hyper-responsive, repeat buyers who remain loyal followers & customers for life.

    So I buy your stuff. I buy what you recommend. I continue to learn because of your awesome tutorials, your products that work as claimed and now (even more so), I jump on your offers because you tell it like it is!

    Thanks! You have no idea how much you are appreciated!
    Tom Tinney

  132. Excellant article. Thankyou for being honest and up front about it… I too have more products than I can count from the Warrior that is just re hashed rubbish. You buy 10 to find maybe 2 that are great and are what is advertised.
    As always buyer beware and those jolly well written sales pages just tug at us… now I note the new sales pages are even prettyer and really grab your attention… but I am not to be fooled now days 🙂
    Older and wiser I hope

  133. I completely agree. At least 90% of WSOs are garbage or just plain scams. I now only trust a handful of marketers and I would only by a WSO if they recommend it. As a matter of fact, I just bought one last week under one of my trusted marketers recommendation and it was a very good purchase. Quality products are getting rare in the world of WSOs. Thank you for standing up and saying something about it.

  134. Hey Hilard, I had wrote a complaint before about one of these “big” marketers and a small post of what they did, but it was taken down that day. I did not have any profanity or anything that would not be allowed on a forum but I guess you can’t worn people about some of these guys and there very bad tactics and virus ridden software. They just allow the scams to continue! unbelievable for a PIAD forum.
    Mark, your right. There has been a load of crap being sent through the WSO of the day. I basically ignore them anymore. You can definitely tell no one makes sure those offers are legit and good.

  135. Mark,

    Thanks, it’s about time someone started calling these guys out by name. It sure is hard to seperate the crap from the good stuff with so much of it out there.

  136. I agree with most of the comments here.
    In the end it always come back to the biggest principal of consumers – “Buyer beware”.
    Many crappy products are supported by excellent sales copy – these guys know how to press your buttons via false scarcity, dimesales, dubious proof etc.

    In the end you will save yourself time and money by not hitting the buy button so fast. Learn to read between the lines and wait for a few days to read the comments. The last page of comments can be very revealing at times. That’s where some real product reviews come into play, not the often biased reviews quickie reviews because someone is being rewarded to extoll non existent virtues. Sure you may give up some dimesales but that is just a ploy to have you rush to buy without engaging your brain.

    Hit the refund button if not satisfied but remember to log all your purchases and links so you can track easily.
    And remember the hidden cost of all this “distraction” in time, money and energy.
    I know it’s hard but focus on one thing, one opportunity at a time or you will be lost in a maze of unfinished business.
    Been there done that…now wiser.

    cheers & buyer beware…Gary

  137. It appears to me that the Warrior Forum has “jumped the shark” and more and more people are seeing thru the tactics used by WSO marketers there and are fed up with it Regardless of what happened behind the scenes with Mark and Mike, it doesn’t make what Mark said any less true. People who bring up things like this are merely using it as a distraction and smoke screen – yet another clever, albeit transparent, trick. It appears that the Warrior Forum has had it’s heyday and will continue to decline from here on out as more and more people are realizing that the bad stuff coming out of the WSO section outnumbers the good stuff now. Most who support the WF WSOs, in one way or another in their comments, usually have a vested interest in the WSO section in that they promote their products there, so, of course, they are going to find a way to throw up their own smokescreen and distraction, otherwise, it takes money out of their pockets, and, as we know, few choose integrity over money these days, especially in IM.

    There is nothing untrue in what Mark said. So what, he’s starting his own forum, so what, Mike claims to have turned him down for whatever and alleges that Mark is crying over spilled milk – none of that changes the facts that are stated in this post that many agree with. Mark had the courage to say out loud what many have been observing and thinking about the WF WSO section for a long time. Bravo! It may be that the WF has become The Shark. Time will tell.

  138. Hi good to see someone speaking out about all the crap coming from the warrior site. Every day someone sends a must not miss this email about the same special deal that can not fail to make you money. I have been conned into buying these only to find that you also should buy the special OTO which was not mentioned before irf you want to get things to work.I have of late applied for refunds on most of these crappy deals and got my money back.Aslo have spent a lot of time unsubscibbing from email lists.

  139. Well said Mark

    I agree it’s a good idea to unsubscribe from a lot of lists I ended up without my further ado. Your blogpost gave me the drive to act immediately on that. I was just to lazy to do so earlier.


  140. Aha,at last some honesty,such a rare commodity these days, very refreshing.
    For awhile now i have been thinking that the wso are just crap,and it took a few hundread dollars for me to realise this,which of course is pretty stupid of me, but in my defense the WSO’s have a way of sucking you in and can be hard to get off a bit like a child on breast milk once they’ve had a taste…

    Anyhow i have agree with some of what Chris Munch says,there are good and bad apples,this applies to all walks of life.The problem for someone like Chris (who i understands puts out good stuff) is that his higher standard of product is getting lost or mixed up with the lower end stuff on the Warrior Forum so everything becomes much of a muchness it all seems the same.What i also find surprising is how much rubbish is being promoted by people you trust (or used to) where once i had heaps of “Guru’s” on my list now there’s just a few,just so much quantity and very little quality.

    Now as i have mentioned i have bought WSO and from JVzoo but for me i now tend to buy from Envato,people complain about there licensing but i find the standard of products way way higher and to date i’ve never asked for a refund,and no i’m not an affiliate for them but this whole post you’ve started Mark is about standards and i believe there’s is on a different planet to the WSO’s.

    As an example, recently there was a WSO on a notification bar that sits at the top of your website and is meant to mimic what Microsoft (blips and all) have been doing for years blah blah blah.Well check out the Foobar at Envato (Codecanyon) it makes the WSO look like what it is a second rate knock off like a bit of cheap plastic you get at the $2 store.I feel sorry for the people that are addicted and keep buying that WSO stuff i know i was one of them.

    I think Mike Lantz really needs to pull his finger out and have a bit more pride in what products he’s offering or allowing on his WSO platform.But he’s probably to busy counting the $$$$ or thinks for one sucker that drops out (like me) there another hundread to take there place.

    Great Post Mark keep them coming


  141. Cynthia Alexander

    I too buy quite a few WSO’s for my offline business. But when they are confusing (like one recently showing a flashy sports car w/a bikini-clad girl), I take pause. Several people asked the question I’d wanted to ask (i.e. how do you get permission if you’re scraping cell phone #s?) People jumped to the defense of the product creator, but the answer was never truly given. People just kept encouraging others to buy it. Sounded like unsolicited text message blasts or spam text messaging to me – not something I want to be involved in.

    I find that I’m getting emails DAILY from Warriors that I bought WSO’s from…all claiming what you said Mark, that they tried it out & it works. I call B.S. on them all now. I have only a few marketers that I listen to anymore & if I want to buy a WSO, I’ll only buy it from the ones I trust. If you send me a new offer every day, I no longer trust you because you don’t care about anything but my wallet.

  142. andrew zubriczky

    Well done Mark for taking a stand.

    We all must do what we must do; especially, when other lives, reputations and interests are at stake.

    Having been a former Private Investigator and Corporate Fraud buster; I know only too well, what sleight of hand dealings from the bottom of the deck that can take place, anywhere and everywhere, should we take a closer look. I have personally witnessed some of the posers and pretenders on the Warrior Forum myself.

    Honestly speaking, there are unethical persons and shady practitioners in all industries, and within all walks of life.

    Some of us, that actually care enough; must uncover and reveal their greedy self serving interests; before other people are swindled and betrayed.

    I applaud your courage and integrity towards the truth!

    Soon enough, the dominoes will fall.

    Stay tuned…

    Keep up the good work!

  143. Interesting… I bought this product through Digiresults. Fortunately I had the sense to get a refund.

  144. Excellent article Mark. I tripped into some of your stuff via WSO and I think that your last product was the last one I bought on WSO. I’ve been dabbling with marketing for about 12 years, but never really pushed it too much. I’ll be retiring in about three years and will make this my full time hobby/business.

    What you say about the content getting watered down really hit home for me. I’ve noticed that. I’m seeing more and more hype and much less substance. Also, the self-called gurus are developing stuff that Google is very likely to crush with a future algorithm change. There is no substitute for hard work. Slick rich media content has made it relatively easy for many of these young kids to come along and fleece the newbies.

    I’ve been automatically deleting Mike’s WSO emails for the past two months. I haven’t read a single one. I will unsubscribe today. I’d much rather follow a real internet businessman like yourself and a few others I have on the radar.

    I did Ezine’s “Hundred Article in a Hundred Days” twice to test that system. I found it was a waste of time since it’s really only designed to make money for them. I have made fifty times the cash just following your advice this past couple of months. And bonus……. it doesn’t cost me $582 a year!!!

    Keep up the great work.

  145. OnlineWritingExpert

    Incisive, Controversial, Informing, Explosive, Direct and cutting right to the bone. Fortunately I could see this coming and invested in the “once off” Warroom Membership, where I benefit from countless free offers, of which a substantial amount are former WSO of the Day.

    The major downfall of the WSO of the Day, is that it invariably has a low priced offer as a loss leader on the front-end, but then the inevitable OTO will rear its ugly head on the back-end. I regard this as unethical marketing, but must admit that not all of these WSO can be tainted with the same crooked brush. Just look at the offers where the marketers expressly do not have a OTO, and you can discover some valuable gems.

    Nevertheless, I agree with most of the sentiments as expressed in Mark’s original expose, and I trust that Mike Lantz will do some deep introspection on the subject matter, as this is all about positive criticism to improve Internet Marketing as a whole. I just have so much sympathy for all the Newbies that are unwittingly being sucked into this vitriol of endless spending of hard earned money, with no conceivable return in the short to medium term.

    But then again, “Buyer Beware”.

  146. I totally agree Mark! I have spent a lot of money on Warrior Special Offers in the past couple of years and 99% of the email I receive from affiliates bring any true value. Most are just affiliate offers for various products. Many of the software products I have bought have become obsolete due to the changes that are taking place with search engines and social media.

    There are even warrior members selling software where a few months up the road no longer support that software or instead of releasing an upgrade to software come at you with an offer for new software that is almost identical to the software that should have been an upgrade to the software you already purchased from them.

    Last week I unsubscribed to dozens of my emails and now will only keep subscriptions that hold value. I don’t mind an affiliate offer now and then for a product that delivers, but getting nothing but affiliate offers in my inbox, them days are OVER!

  147. I totally agree with your post. For me the WF has been more like a tolerated evil. I keep up with it because there are a few marketers active there who provide solid information. But I’m a seasoned marketer and can make my way through all the crap to recognize the truly good “stuff”.

    It’s no wonder that Internet marketing has such a high failure rate for beginners when you have places like the WF dropping obstacle after obstacle on the path these beginners are traveling! WF is truly a double edged sword. I feel it was an important part of my learning process and development, but for beginners who are going it totally alone, it is an uphill battle to say the least.

    The WSO section has been “bad” for a long time now. Ever since they went to the warrior plus system and made it so you can be an affiliate for WSO’s, it has been absolutely ridiculous! Personally I think it was a terrible idea. It made the beginners road even more difficult because everyone and their brother is promoting these crap WSO’s. You buy a wso now, you’re forced to sign up to the author’s list, and next thing you know you are bombarded with offer after offer, all of which are “must have” and the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    Anyway, you summed it up about as good as anyone could say. Unfortunately, nothing will change because it’s like a feeding frenzy over there in regards to the beginners. You have your wso inner circle kissing each other’s arses, drinking the koolaid, and making a crap load of money and taking full advantage.

  148. The BS, fake screenshots and fraud is off the chart there.

    People get called out on fake screenshots and use some bogus excuse (and get away with it)… just the other day someone posted a comment about how great and honest the WSO seller was – and then the same user made a mistake posting WSO details – the WSO seller and guy were the same person. He forgot to log out.

    It will not be very much longer until the feds step in over there and end the party.

  149. Hey Mark
    Well said, I’ve had the feeling that there was
    “Something roten in the state of WSO” lately

  150. This comment by Mike Lantz really confirms my decision: “I really don’t want to argue with you on this, but your posted email proves my point. You wanted to integrate Warrior Plus into your new offer forum – and I didn’t oblige. You’re jealous that I don’t want to work with you on your sub-par forum and thusly have vented your frustrations on your blog. ”

    You NEVER make yourself look taller by hacking the other guy off at the knees. The “sub par” comment is foolish and shows me that Mike is just a kid. Only kids react like that.

    In the end, the market will decide. For now, I’m siding with Mark on this one.

  151. Thanks for making this post. Its full of good advice that I’m sure allot of buyers never thought of before. I’ve purchased several items from the Warrior Forum, but none of them were the ‘Special Offers of the Day’
    I will from now take a much closer look before buying.

  152. Glad you have spoken out about some of the utter s**t that is being sold on the WSO. I have bought plenty myself and have got refunds. I will delete anyone from my email list that sends me to a crap offer, if everyone did this then maybe they would look at the “offers” they were sending us to.
    But saying that I do look at the offers and still do buy some great products there. I think you can spot genuine offers, if they show you software in action they have nothing to hide.
    The best place to look at a review of any product or info package on there is the last page. Skip the first few pages of lavish praise, they all got free review copies and then emailed the WSO to there own lists.
    Am I a Sceptic? You bet I am.

  153. Well Mark
    as promised this sure is a controversial post…

    I guess whenever there is a chance to make money people will go about it in different ways and other people will judge them in diverse ways.

    Being from Europe I noticed that markteing and selling in the US is done with waayyy more hype than what I experience here. Often enough extremely bold claims are made, like “no one else is doing/teaching this” when it may already have been around for months and months (I commented on one of these cases lately in a WSO thread). Folks who do not know better may easily fall far such a statement which in my book could be considered as a blatant lie. Others pay money for stuff they can have for free.

    Well, I guess people go to different lenghts to make money. While some are quite shy about it others will not even stop from illegal stuff.

    Once a forum or a platform becomes popular it attracts all kinds of marketers, and among them the scammers, spammers and other interesting creatures… (hardly any of them would see themselves as such I guess).

    I think it is a good thing to discuss these issues in public. People need a variety of sources for information so they can make an educated decision – should they have any wish to do so

    • @ Detlev – Thank you for your comments. I am sure about the Europe marketers not being hypey like the US marketers. In fact, some of the worst Clickbank bandits in my mind are the European inner circle guys.

  154. Mark, you have hit the nail on the head, couldn’t have said it better. Thanks for the tips on the other forums.

  155. Hi Mark
    Your on to something.
    Lately I’ve had the feeling about some of the WSO offers
    that it was no good. So I stopped bying them.

  156. I live in the UK and would agree with Detlev. We could not get away with some of the tactics and claims in some of the offers made for WSO’s, in any form of advertising or promotion over here.

  157. I posted a comment on WF ages ago asking ‘how many WSO’s of the day were there’ because I seemed to get about 3 different ones every day!!! I realized then that all was not as it seemed with the WSO of the day.

    What also annoys me is that people will lower themselves and make positive comments just because they got a review copy. I cannot believe that every product is ‘great’ and I should rush out an buy it. I have seen a couple of comments lately where people who obviously didn’t get a review copy had something negative to say about a product and didn’t they get castigated big time… you don’t paste negative stuff in the wso section blah blah blah.

    I read a couple of years ago on another forum about the WF being heavily moderated and I did not tend to believe it was as bad as it was made out at the time – but I am starting to believe it now.

  158. What timing Mark?
    A couple of days ago after being fed up with these so called WSO offers, I posted a degenerative thread to the practice in the warrior forum itself which was much along the lines as you’ve written.
    I had actually bought a WSO around 6 hours before and hadn’t yet had a chance to even try it and before I knew it, had recieved about 8 emails from the affiliate trying to promote other WSOs.
    Anyway, within minutes the thread was on fire with responses from people agreeing with what I’d said and adding their take on the practice.
    However, after about the 10th post within a few minutes, I was busily writing a response to someone else’s post, when the thread was taken down by administrators.
    I recieved no warning or nasty messages….it just disappeared.
    So who’s looking after our good friends Mike Lanz etc?
    Questionable I would think.

  159. Thanks so much for that, about time someone had the guts to speak out, you have given us all some good insight to what goes on behind the scenes and most likely saves us some hard earned cash.

  160. Random thoughts…

    I agree with the basic premise of Mark’s post, and not so much with some of the responses.

    Most people are sheep, and wolves prey on sheep. It’s that simple. Is it the sheep’s fault? Maybe. Is it the wolves fault? Maybe. For me it’s really hard to put the “blame” on a single entity.

    Desperation sells, and I’m willing to bet most WSO purchasers are desperate. Or just plain lazy.

    Seems like a lot of WSO sellers are getting involved because – hey, if I sell my crappy product for $5, and someone buys it… well, they are only out $5 and I am $5 richer. No big deal.

    The real issue is the hype that always goes along with the WSO. Nothing is ever as simple or easy as the hypsters make it out to be. On top of that, much of that information is outdated almost immediately nowadays.

    “Gaming the System” seems to be the theme of the vast majority of WSO’s. The other day I read something that made me sit up and take notice. Don’t you think it’s just as easy for a Google employee to peruse a WSO posting as it is for the eventual buyers of same? Think about it before you post about your next “Google hack” or “auto-blogging plugin”. They are seeing exactly what you’re selling, and eventually see who posts all of the testimonials. Google really doesn’t need fancy programming to uncover all the hacks – they can just read it on the Warrior Forum!

    A great recent WSO to prove my point. A so-called “curating” plugin. Using Google Alerts. Man, talk about walking right into the mouth of the lion. I tried using the same technique years ago by having Yahoo Alerts emailed to several Blogger blog. That did not go well. At all.

    Sheeps and wolves.

  161. Hey Mark,

    Thank you for having the gumption to write this post – it’s BANG-ON!

    The warrior forum used to be a decent place to read reviews – but now they don’t like our opinions (even from paid-up members).


    Anyway, getting back to the real point of this discussion – I believe that the Warrior forum is now plagued with 98% plus parasites.

    Please excuse my anger about this – I see right through them and what makes my blood boil is the fact that the Warrior forum will not allow people like me to air my opinion.

  162. Thanks a lot Mark for speaking out loud.
    I’ve lost all respect for warrior forum when “they” publish a course on how to milk their members.
    It comes to when the newbies making a crap products and inner circle promoting to the list to boost
    the sale. There was a few times when I’ve tried to comment on this and was attacked by the supporters.
    Now I call it, a sharks forum.
    Make things worst, when I unsubscribed from many lists, somebody from WF sabotaging me with hundreds of spams every day. I will get to the bottom of it and there will be consequences.
    Thanks again Mark for taking time and talk about.

  163. This is great. I have been thinking the same thing and have noted in some of the skype forums that the people there are concerned that you are killing their golden goose by posting these comments. I say this i believe in the Law of Attraction and if these people believe that taking money and not providing value is a golden goose they have believed a lie. I say kill that goose and soon before newbies are scammed, hurt and have lost the little marketing capital they have. Unsubscribe from the so called gurus and partner with people of like mind. create a product that you have control of and you can provide the value for and not pay JV partners so say good things so others will buy products that they themselves will never use. I say unsubscribe, ask for refunds and spread this word of warning to others. we need to think for ourselves before we hit anyone’s buy it now button. anyone can pm me at my email or hit me on skype mikeaemiseger@gmail.com or mikeay2 at skype I am going to post this article at my facebook and on my twitter. believe in yourself and what you know and you can achieve anything


  164. I stepped away from the computer for a few hours and came back online not realizing I had not closed out this page. When I did I re-read the post and the comments here and took notice of a major point that is not being made here at all in regards to Mike Lantz and the WSO of the Day notifications he sends out.

    First off, Mike created the Warrior Plus system. WSO Pro as many of us call it is a System which integrates payment processing and affiliate capabilities into the Warrior Special Offers Forum. This allows product creators to use his system to generate buzz through JV/ Affiliate partnerships and to process payments to sell their products in the Warrior Forum via PayPal. Payments to Affiliates and to the product creator (seller) are all done automatically through this system. This is not too different from what Clickbank, JVZoo, or Digiresults do generally speaking. It is just more finely integrated with the Warrior Forum then the other services.

    When product creators (sellers) setup a new product in the WSO Pro system, they have to pay a one time $19 fee and they can opt to have their product considered for WSO of the Day. They can also request that Warrior Plus acts as an affiliate on their behalf as well. Neither of these options are mandatory. The later is the only other way Mike Lantz makes money from the Warrior Plus system from which Sellers are making thousands upon thousands of dollars in sales via his system. So, by sending out the WSO of the Day Newsletter, this is really one of the only ways Mike really makes any money from his own service. Definitely nothing hypocritical about that.

    Next, let’s look at what the WSO of the Day really is. It is simply the best available WSO which is currently available by a Seller (who has asked to have his product considered for WSO of the Day) in Mike’s Warrior Plus system. Then, based on the number of sales which are made for products and comments in forum threads, Mike picks the best available WSO each day and that is then sent out as the WSO of the Day. There is no way he is going to be reviewing and inspecting each and every WSO to see if it meets a specific quality standard. How could he possible have time to do this? He is running a service and announcing the best WSO available each day. Period. Why is that being looked at in such a negative light? How else would you have him do it? Do you have to buy the WSO’s? No. Do you have to like the WSO’s? No. If you haven’t noticed, WSO of the Days are not brand new WSO’s on the day they are launched. They usually have been live at least 1 day and have generated a bunch of buzz, traffic, and sales before Mike announces them as the WSOD. He is simply picking the best performer in his system. How is that wrong? Just like people have said above. If you don’t like it, unsubscribe.

    So what does the WSO of the Day notification system actually do? 2 things. It helps everyone know what are potentially the best WSO’s available that day and it is one of the only ways Mike can make any money from the service he provides to Sellers who make thousands of dollars from his system every single day. I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. In fact, anyone here would be more than happy to take this service (that he created) off his hands. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t make any money from this service at all. $19 and an affiliate share that sellers don’t have to give him for a WSO that might make $20,000 in sales is a small thing to ask based on the service he provides here.

    All in all, this is also about perspective. You have to know the ins and outs of this system, the Warrior Forum, etc. I market products myself and fully understand what goes on in the back channels and front side channels. To say that Mike Lantz is perpetuating a scam here is flat out wrong.

    If anyone should understand this, you should Mark. I agree with your other comments about the Warrior Forum, but definitely not this part.

    • @ Mike Johnson Thanks for the comment Mike. Appreciative. I understand your sentiment. It all looks logical. Here is my take:

      1. Mike Lantz, like all of us, is a internet marketer with a subscriber list. As such, we have a responsibility to our lists. We can either feed them value, or feed them garbage. If we feed them value, our list rewards us. If we feed them with continual garbage, we run into the slippery downward slope of burning our own business.

      2. WSO of the Day, in an of itself, is a phrase that is dishonest. Mike would only pick a WSO that is a part of warriorplus, that makes him money. There are scores of WSO’s on a particular day that do not list with warriorplus, but go with straight paypal, or clickbank, jvzoo, or whatever. Hence, to call something “wso of the day” on his part, really sets himself up, when he is leaving out many wso’s that is not part of his system. It really should be called WarriorPlus Of The Day, not WSO of the Day.

      3. The idea that, “I must email out an offer, even if all the offers are pure rubbish, because I have a list who are waiting for the so-called WSO Of The Day” is a lose-lose concept. It would hold a lot of credibility if you got an email that said, “Sorry folks. There were some warriorplus offers today at wf, but after looking at them, I cannot recommend that you get any of them. Perhaps tomorrow will be a better day of value.”

      4. To run a business means you take responsibility for every customer that you have. If you recommend a scam product to a customer, or a pure money grab of rehashed and regurgitated product again and again, sooner or later it will come and bite you in the ass.

      5. Go and buy Mike’s WSO of the Day’s, for the last 60 days. Go through them, and tell me how many are actually good internet marketing and worthy of a mailing to your own list. 🙂

  165. Giovanni Dattoma

    A good post by Mark.
    I like in the UK and have to say that Mark is right to disagree with Detlev as far European Marketers are concerned.
    Hype has become contagious and universal. There should be a website dedicated to most hypey people…

    I did notice the flood of offers into my inbox from Mike and some others. It has become unhealthy to keep up with them all. Some products on WSO are genuine and good. It’s easy to get carried away though.

  166. Mark,

    Let me get this straight. You’re simply full of shit!

    It’s easy to get praises when you criticize other marketers on your stupid blog and trying to pretend you’re an expert in what you sell. Did you ever invent something new? All I can see from your blog is the same information that you learned from other marketers as well.

    And let’s talk about YOUR customer support…

    It’s pure BULLSHIT as well!

    You have the guts to insult us of “pain in the ass” just because we asked a few questions about your products… Well I wonder if you’ve been told some manners when you were a kid. Or probably you’re a bit retarded??

    Let’s also talk about how you treat your affiliates..

    HA! It’s YOU who is the SCAMMER!

    You’ve got tons of people that you OWE money to and it seems that you didn’t pay their affiliate commissions at all. What a joker you are.

    So you like to bring out the truth? Well come on the forum and talk about it openly. What are you afraid of if you’ve nothing to hide? You hide yourself behind your blog and trying to earn sympathy of others because you’re feeling lonely and nobody wants to JV with you. I pity you!

  167. Great article Mark and I too have purchased many ‘scams’ and wasted tons of money on crappy wso’s. It seems to come down to who has the best sales copy and can lure us into believing this might be the next biggest thing.

    The only sure way to success is to focus on where you’re going and do the ‘hard yards’ and not get distracted by all these ‘shiny objects’ that promise the world.

    It’s great you have voiced your opinion and I’m sure you’ll have many agree with you.

  168. If you know anything about me, you already know I don’t mail my list crap if I can help it. We all make mistakes as I am sure you have from time to time. I normally only mail things which pertain to my members or that can benefit them within the system I teach. Thus providing them more value and ways to take advantage of my system. I might have promoted 4 products to my list in the last 3 months outside of my own products.

    That being said, Mike’s is providing a service. He does not have a set of quality guidelines and at one point he had the only service of its kind on the Warrior Forum until JVZoo and Digiresults jumped in there and a few smaller fish as well who all wanted a slice of Mike’s pie. These other services do not provide any quality shield in their mailings either as far as I can tell. At least they are not claiming any.

    Mike is running a business just like you are. You don’t like the results of the emails he sends out? Don’t subscribe. Does everyone have to like it? No. I like to think I am one of the most honest and forthright marketers on the web. Does everyone like everything I do? Heck no. I have people tell me I am not being honest when I am, I have people ask for refunds, and I have people say they don’t like my content. This is a very small percentage. Maybe 1-2% of my overall business, but like me, everyone has this to a lesser or greater degree. It is called running and business and why we as consumers have a choice. You can choose to be a part of it or not. You can be objective about the WSO of the Day emails or you can be hyper critical. In the end what does it matter. They are just emails saying what the WSO of the Day is in the Warrior Plus system.

    My point here is this. So what?

    • @ Mike Johnson

      The ‘so what’ is that many of my subscribers, particularly new one’s, and customers, are being led down the garden path that ends in bristles and thorns. I am sure, as a list owner, you want to promote great products, but also tell your list of the crappy one’s too and what is bad marketing. I’m fortunate enough to be at the place to speak out and it doesn’t effect my business because I am independent. Others do not have this, and are dependent upon JV’s, etc. Not speaking of you, but generally speaking. I think it is important to tell those whom we lead of the good, the bad and the ugly, and always point them to stay the course.

  169. I think the downward spiral for the Warrior Forum began when they started letting everyone and their brother become affiliates for the WSOs. That’s when all the shills showed up to pump the sales threads and any negative feedback was attacked, because there was money at stake. I now have become a serial refunder of about 90% of all the WSOs I buy. I also search the Black Hat forums to get many WSOs for free, if it’s really good, I’ll go buy it and leave a nice comment.

  170. I’ve long been leery of the WSO’s. They tend to look more and more like the crap that you get bombarded with if you use Safelists. And, as was pointed out earlier, if you go for one and get on the mailing list you get shotgunned with tons of obvious crap.Anymore, if I get a WSO email, I just delete it. I don’t have time to fool with it. I’m an experienced Software Engineer and I’m trying to build up a business as an independent consultant and contractor. I don’t have time to waste on fluff that’s obviously designed to get into my wallet and waste my time and money. Just my two cents, here.

  171. its funny, around a year ago… I asked mike lantz if he would promote my WSO considering I had over 100k+ views at the time. I was using (and still use) ejunkie as my shopping cart. guess what sir mike said?? I would have to get WSO Pro, SO HE COULD SEE MY SALES STATUS. I told him to go f himself. I have close to 200k views now, with the help of NO AFFILIATES. Just the forum. Anyways, I have my product on both digi and jvzoo, and both have done quite well.

    But yeah, mike is totally just a money hungry SOB. Never liked the guy. And will never use WSO pro. EVER.

  172. One of my questions, Mark, was going to be what is the age range of the people on this blog. Charles Leroy has answered the part of it – letting me know that the lower age is around 14. It seems his views are once again, way out in space .. all by himself.

  173. Thanks Mark,

    You just did exactly what the moderators do on the Warrior forum.

    You just made my post a complete waste of time and left absolutely nothing of value in it. YOU edited over 95% of my post.

    It was alright for you have a rant – but we can’t. You’re just another one. It’s all gotta be on your terms.

    You make me sick!

    I almost got to think that you was a ‘good’ guy!

    I made a mistake – never mind!

    I’ll be unsubscribing from your list as well.

    Good luck!

    • @ Tony Marquis – Don’t be shy Tony. Your comment was off topic and a vent and allegations by you on a personal injury you had against a particular marketer, whom I do not know. While perhaps a good topic, it did not focus on post at hand.

  174. Kudos to you Mark for not being afraid to voice your opinion boldly and stick to your instincts….
    I have been a follower and owner of many of your products and courses (and particularly over the critical phases anyone learning this stuff has to make it through and come out the other side in one piece)… and I can say as someone making a very very good living as an affiliate marketer now, that your legit, to the point and at the time game-changing – for me certainly- and i am talking about dominating google, senuke courses etc in particular (though i also own use and love many of your wp plugins too)…

    Those courses helped steer me through the inevitable swap of crap one must get through as a mentor to look upto with skills and ideas that were outside of the box and got my head and actions moving in very smart directions i can directly trace to my success now.

    Of course there is a degree of bias in Mark’s post that is true of anyone’s own experience or opinion – but frankly being willing to voice it like you see it – and name names and detail specifics… that gets my respect big time, especially in an industry that IS full to the brim with crap…

    you have an insider perspective clearly – and for anyone bashing what Mark is saying, especially (a lot of it is obvious to those who have been around the IM world for some length of time)… i have had a sense of this for a while, heard a couple other brave marketing voices (Shane of imimpact to be specific http://imimpact.com/non-public/one-less-product/) distancing themselves for the same reasons roughly as you are expressing Mark.

    And I think voicing such a firm position is also really important for those who are just starting out or still in that – hating to be cliche but information overload phase – frankly i cant imagine how much worse things are for them then I spent a good year or so of learning through failing and chasing each fad i didn’t understand but sounded awesome… the fact that yes, seo and affil. marketing is downright more competitive and harder then a few years ago even when i went through that – and to be trying to learn while distracted by daily magic pill offers that are priced reasonably cheap enough that it would be easy enough try and swallow a new one daily without realizing you arent getting anywhere and just swimming in circles making other people rich.

    and last little thing, can’t resist – as a fellow Canadian who could be considered a super-affiliate and success at this…

    @alison you sound like a good natured, well-meaning person and all, but from my observations i would venture a guess that there are per capita quite a few more of us Canucks doing well with our IM and marketing… but irregardless, your country kinda lost the ‘global throne’ seat and doesn’t really have the ‘sway’ to keep up that big brother knows best attitude a good few years ago… we actually do things little differently up in frozen canada and don’t have to answer to that charming Yankee arrogance… but have fun, you do your country proud, and best wishes to you, maybe try to actually stick with and learn 1 course or program – whatever it is – before returning it and you can have a chance learn something and stop whining.

  175. Good move Mark, thanks for your honest ( and brave I guess) post.
    I felt long time like I am the only one who smells too much garbage and scams all over the WF & WSO .
    I don’t want to talk about Mike Lantz or any, to say so, technical side behind the WSO.
    What matters is the products’ quality.
    I bought the same WSO as you and asked for refund.
    I bought many WSOs in the last 3 month of 2011, only to discover what you said in the post:
    mostly, their purpose was only to put money in sellers’ pockets and subscribers to their lists.
    If it was a guide, you could bet it had no value. Nothing new. Re-hashed plr garbage.
    If it was a plugin software, you could bet it would be ‘blood and tears’ software-testing-job
    that YOU PAID FOR (instead of being paid !)
    One doesn’t need to be an expert in any niche to become WSO ‘ bestseller ‘. The main requirement
    is to be an ass**** with no integrity.
    NOTE : Hats down to the rare marketers who are bringing the awesome products at awesome prices, but they are rather rare.
    At the beginning of the WSO-craziness I was somewhat disappointed and
    felt uncomfortable asking refund, like I was somehow guilty about it.
    But as time went ahead so the craziness went as well
    and I went ahead as well not only asking for refund
    but asking the sellers how they were not ashamed for scamming people so blatantly .
    But…there are still numerous WSO-s, numerous ‘raving’ reviews and numerous scammed people,
    especially newbies.
    Clickbank #2.
    Scam after scam.
    And again, I am not saying that there’s no good products at all,
    but as soon as I see ‘hundreds’ of emails promoting ‘the latest, greatest shiny thing’ I just trash them.

  176. Hey @ Tony Marquis,
    Have you heard the term “peeing into the wind”? Keep your eyes on the ball son.

  177. @Mike Johnson

    you’re actually another of the very few IM ‘teachers’ i have to credit with learning a lot from – I am a member of profitfm and ABB and respect your approach enormously…

    but your point here is basically if you don’t like it – don’t use it – which is fine unless something is getting to the point of being a monopoly – does a monopoly mean there aren’t other players? no not at all … microsoft was a monopoly frankly (and this is MY opinion no one has to agree… cranking out crappy products and software) ten years ago when i was and still am a mac user… it doesn’t make their practices ok.

    2nd.. you talk about ‘consumers having a choice’ – agreed, educated consumers do – but as a marketer you know marketing is about convincing and manipulating someone’s choice (i’m not saying that is always bad, as long as power isn’t abused) … but my main point on that is that just as everyone has a choice consumer wise, Mark has a choice to vent his experience and opinions here – it is part of what gives ‘potential consumers’ the education from multiple points of view to have the ability to make an ‘educated choice’ and if it isn’t a choice that is based on different considerations and points of view… it isn’t really a choice. One supports the other… so while i dont have all of the background backroom experiences to confirm Mark’s POV myself, if i were a marketer considering using WSO I would want to have access to Mark’s view here, but I wouldn’t base my entire choice on it … i would look to other opinions as well … so frankly and with all due respect i have to say your objection to Mark comes across as a little pithy and naive.

  178. Quite intersting that the people who have bad things to say about this blogpost have some lists of their own??? Why are you upset about this, could it be that thousands of people are now leaving your list?? Did you forget that all that money you spent actually came from these people that u r trating like ATM’s

    Dont be upset, go to your WF (Does WF stand for Warrior Forum or What The …. ) Sell your products to the uneducated people seeking the truth, they will eventually find it on a new quality forum… Did all of your that are upset about this forget that the people you have mistreated also have email list, FB pages, Twitter accounts etc that ads up to hundreds of thousands of people? Do you guys who have a lot of bad things to say about this truthful posts forgotten that the power is not in your hands? without your buyers you do not exist.

    Did you forget that a quiet “buyer” like me who did buy your crappy products in the past actually have over 5000 followers that have being notified? Did you forget that all your buers know how to like a blogpost.

    Stop acting as if you own us and go and comment on your forum, the truth will prevail. We will do our own thing in a legitimate and truthful manner, you are not welcome …

  179. Mark
    You should have posted this on April 1st, it would have been a super classic …. 🙂

  180. Funny, Hostgator has disabled the email Comment Notifications on my blog because I am over the daily send email limit.

  181. There are a lot of levels to this. Yes, I would say my general feeling is that WSOs have gotten out of control and for someone relatively new to me it is hard to tell what is quality and what is not. In fact I bought the Free Backlink System v2 also and enjoyed it and thought there. But I have bought other WSO including WSO of the day that really were not good. It’s even gotten to the point where some people start new blogs and mailing lists proclaiming to be WSO police and yet they also send out emails with lower quality products

    I think the Warrior Plus system as a whole is good and the WSO of the day email at least reminds me to check on the latest WSOs… But that’s about it. I think it is smart to simply be aware as a buyer and set standards for yourself as a buyer. I just bought a few in the last three weeks, none WSO of the day that I know of, that are really good

    But long story short, I’m glad someone of repute spoke up and this conversation is engaged…. Being newbish I didn’t know what kind of reaction I would get speaking up nor did I have confidence in my own opinion (being newbish). Thanks for writing this entry and I will be following the comments enthusiastically

  182. Hostgator shut down my email notifications from comments because it has gone over its daily limit because of all the activity on this post. 🙂

  183. i bought a few WSO, and ask for refund, as some are just the repeating technique which is not applicable to Google update, i test 1 technique to use Fiverr to get 3000 backlink for one of my site, after backlink created, my site was de-index, because my site everyday got 300 to 500 visitor and suddenly it just dead with zero visitor,
    some info taught in WSO you need time to test out and you may lost your site after tested, i cannot do anything, as all under my own judgement base on thing i learn.
    There are very good WSO too, which i think is worth the price and i will never ask for refund.
    conclusion is, no matter what, you need to test then you know.
    the worse is WSO is not like clickbank, sometimes you may not get your refund back.

  184. Hey Ben@Best…. Those are great speakers! And always do speak up! Every one of us got here partially off the back of someone else. Mark has great products. I’ve been at it for 15 years and I know someone who cares when I see them now. Mark is one of those guys. And that speaks to not just what he’s done so far, but what he is capable of doing under the right circumstances. I want him to be profitable, because I know he’ll just double down on development. Regarding your blog… Have you created 30 second video spots for it? If you do it right… two weeks to page one. I have four of the top ten for “boomer news”. Jockying with Huffington Post for top spot. One day me… another day Huff.

  185. @sunny, I just looked at your site. Buy Ivybot. It might have been a coincidence that you got de-lisited. You site is exactly what Google is targeting. Maybe you are a newbie? I don’t know and I don’t mean to annoy you, but someone needs to tell you that the site just smells of “marketing” all the way. No value added. One post showing? Theme is ugly. Footer all wrong. Sidebar very ugly. Comments closed. You have links in “uncategorized” areas. No links juice happening here. No video support. Nothing to establish your credentials for even talking about this subject.

    One of the principal errors that newbies make is to wade off into niche markets that they have no passion for. You can’t talk forex with the experts. That’s my guess. You need to slow down and do it right.

    • @ Niche and Sunny – agreed, the Forex niche is rather cultic with a specific following. You have to really walk the talk if you want to sell forex products, and hold yourself as an expert.

  186. Hi Mark,

    I absolutely agree what you mentioned. Since the introduction of affiliate system in WSO, I found that the quality diluted a lot since everyone is looking for great EPC product to promote and don’t really care about the quality. This is very similar to the time where there are $37 or $39 Clickbank products heavily focused on push button and yet tons of big marketers promoted those… The truth is we really need to be extremely careful when we buy on WSO. In clickbank, you can easily get refund, not from WSO as you are dealing with individual seller, not a third party platform. Still there are quality products there but just need to spend more time to dig the gold.

    In fact, I have a blog post in Feb highlighted the WSO problem and how I feel about WSO now comparing to previous WSO (before the affiliate system come in) and what to do to prevent getting scam. Take a look if you are interested below: http://www.mingjongtey.com/millionaire-mind/wso-problem/


  187. Thanks for writing about this. I have been a member of WSO for a number of years; have bought some; but have not had any ‘significant’ reactions from any of them. I’ve had some that I ‘tried’ to get refunds for, but – no such luck!
    My advice [for what it’s worth]: “Be Wary” of the WSO Forum, just like Mark says…
    Yes, Mark, JVZoo is a ‘much-better-gamble’ for beginners and experts alike. Just check out the “players” and you’ll know why it is such a success…

  188. Nick Walsh
    thank you for your comment, the site i mention is not buyivybot.com, it is anono.org
    anyway, thank you

  189. I am a total newbie. I bought a couple of WSO deals of the day. So far I have been extremely happy with the help when I needed it. But, I am on the list for twice-a-day deals. I haven’t found many worth looking at. I found your product through Google. Happy, happy. And then you wrote this. I am signing up for your newsletter because I believe you really care about what you offer and I can learn from you.

  190. Nick, thanks for your comment and email 🙂 I am going to get into some videos on youtube too – is that what you meant?

    I like Mark a lot from what I’ve seen so far. Interestingly enough, another marketer I have huge respect for is Mike Johnson via his AutoBlog Blueprint (who wrote some debate-ish comments in this very blog post). In fact it was an email from Mike Johnson to his ABB list that recommended Mark’s RSS Link Bomber which got me onto Mark’s list. The other few marketers I’ve found I like are Steven Resell and Matt Rhodes.

    There are definitely great guys out there – coincidentally they tend NOT to market many WSO’s either (just realized that as I was typing this).

    Anyway, appreciate the feedback on the site. I was just going to do some article to videos – do you mind telling me what you had in mind? I’m guessing you have something much more powerful (and apologize on hijacking the thread… you can send me a message on the “Contact Us” on the speakers website!)

  191. Mark,

    Thanks for bringing this to light. It’s about time that someone turned on the light switch. I have had personal interaction with you via email numerous times, and you have always responded. Try to get that from the vast majority of the sellers on the WF. If you do get them to actually respond, many of them will want to charge you coaching fees to answer questions.

    Thanks again, for bring the B.S. To light…I have to agree with you about Mike Lantz, as I get that garbage every day in my inbox. It appears from what I have seen personally, that he promotes the ones that pay out 100% affiliate commissions.

    Could be right, could be wrong, just sayin…..

    All the best!

  192. Good on you Mark, true words. I to have had the experience of making some horrendous WSO purchases. I find that when you start to read the posts and you see all the back patting right from the get go, something stinks. This can very often be the deciding factor whether I read the sales page or not. Further more, your take on Clickbank policy changes driving these guys to the WF is the same thought I was having.

  193. I don’t know why people here keep saying it is hard to get a refund from a WSO. If you Pay via PayPal, PayPal always will grant a refund if it is within the 60 day period following the purchase. I personally have yet to see an issue with this. The last thing a Seller using PayPal wants is to have tons of unsolved issues on their accounts. I am sure you have heard of the Marketers who have had their PayPal accounts shut down on the Warrior Forum due to having tons of refunds. NO seller wants this, so to keep from drawing attention from PayPal, they will grant refund requests made via PayPal very quickly.

    In regards to the Warrior Plus system itself, buyers are able to request a refund directly through the Warrior Plus system from their purchase emails. Mike Lantz’s system is setup that Sellers and Affiliates alike will receive the refund request and if you do not honor the request, Mike will cancel your Warrior Plus account. If a Seller tells you he won’t give you a refund on a purchase or does not reply to your request within 72 hours (not counting weekends) you should then either go through Warrior Plus or directly to PayPal itself. There are tons of protections here for buyers. You just need to know how to use them.

  194. Courage. Congratulations Mark for having the guts to air this. I am also a member of the WF and have bought way too many WSOs. I have raised these issues on the forum several times. It seems to me that greed stuffs up so many things in life and the WF is a sad one.

    I’ve got some serious beefs with Fiverr but at least you can read the feedback for red warning signs. But Fiverr also has no governance that is other than to protect those making the money. WSOP seems to have nothing at all. As one of the earlier contributors mentioned, WF doesn’t seems to come down on anyone for products that simply fail to work, lies, non-refunds and un answered emails and PMs.

    The backscratching, game-changing, hype from all the incrowd seems unseemly like sharks in a school of fish. I fully agree with the points you make about clickbank refugees, amazing tools that do absolutely nothing, 100 guarantees that are not honored, endless self-serving promotions of everything they find — it’s a wild west scandal with no sheriff in sight.

    The irony is that the guys who are making so much out of this are killing the goose that laid their golden egg.

    How many times do they think we will get burned before we leave? Obviously they are prepared to keep going until it stops. A real shame as it could have been great all around.

    Mark you have made me proud to be a customer of yours.

  195. Hostgator turned back on my email notifications from my blog commenting again. Yee Haw. We went over the limit for 1 day.

  196. Personally I believe the Warrior Forum is the current high profile arena for less than scrupulous sellers to peddle worthless products to newbie internet marketers looking to strike it rich. In a way it’s a microcosm to the gold rush. Talk about shooting fish in a barrel.

    You will find a few gold nuggets but most of the products are fools gold.

    I was on many seller lists and I was getting close to 500 emails a day for the next latest and greatest WSO. Not anymore!

  197. I purchased one of those wso about 2 months ago. It was some kind of word press back link bot. For some reason I could not get the script to work on any of my sites. So i went into the forum to talk about my experience and I was immediately attacked for saying negative comments about the product. So I take all offers on the net with a grain of salt.

  198. Simon Greenhalgh

    Respectfully Mark, your right, you do not know me. Once again, you are making big, bold & sweeping statements about something you know nothing about. What has you be an independent got to do with anything? WSOs make up a small percentage of my income. I am just a realist and I can see that there are good and bad sellers in every selling platform.

    I still feel the WF is a safe place to buy. One of the biggest reasons I do my utmost to provide a good service on the Wf is because if don’t, the damage to my reputation will be very public and the chances of me selling more products is slim.

    There is no other place online that you can go and out a scammer as fast as you can on the WF. Sure, if you go and spend $100 with someone who joined the forum a week ago, there is a chance he will run with your money.

    Payments are made via PayPal, if your not happy with the product put in a refund request, PayPal always side with the buyer so your money is perfectly safe too.

    In reality Mark, i think that your issue lies with the fact that the best WSO sellers are providing huge amounts of value at a price you won’t/can’t compete with. The low pricing of WSOs is having an impact on your sales and you are too stuck in your ways too move with the times.

    (See, we can both make presumptious statements about the others business)

  199. Mark, after reading this, I saw something which opened my eyes here to what is really going on.  

    You own WSOForum.com don’t you?  

    I know you hyped it very casually in your Blog Post above, but then when I went to it, I saw you had most of the content there.  Even if you don’t own it, why would you support a name like WSOForum, which is a blatant ripoff of the Warrior Forum?  I mean, c’mon?  WSO Forum?  What else can it stand for but “Warrior Special Offer Forum”.  It was said in previous posts here you were starting your own forum.  Am I assuming wrong that this is it?  You seem to have most of the products listed there right now so at a minimum you are supporting it.  Is that why you touted it above as already having done $25,000 in sales? I am asusming from emails to your own list? The domain owner is hidden by Domains by Proxy (Godaddy Privacy Protection) so only you know the truth.

    I agree with the all your comments about the quality of 90% of the offers on the Warrior Forum, but that is not Mike Lantz’s issue, that is Alan Says issue.  He does need to fix it.  I actually started a Forum Thread about this in the Warrior Forum about 4 months ago.  It was closed and deleted within a day of posting it.  They like the money they are making and they don’t care what anyone thinks.  That is my opinion of it.  But this blog post here wasn’t written because of that.  You had an alterior motive.

    My opinion of what happened here is this.  You asked Mike Lantz to set you up with the software he uses to run Warrior Plus so you could add it to your WSOForum.com site.  He said no.  In return you got mad and acted like a wounded child and attacked him via your blog with this post.  At the same time, you vilified the entire Warrior Forum and their business practices to get support.  The problem is, your actual reason for this is because you want to have your own Special Offers forum.  So much that you would actually have the balls to call it the “WSO” Forum.  So, I guess the plan was to make everyone angry about the Warrior Forum, say yeah Mark, you were right, but then promote your own Forum in a sneaky way as the answer to this problem.  Is that tomorrow’s blog post here?  That is pretty underhanded.  How can you talk about doing the right thing, when you are doing exactly the opposite?  You really have these people snowed.

    I am sure you have a good reason for leaving these details out of the mix here, right?  I can’t wait to hear them.

  200. Promoting a website

    I got sucked into this daily deals nonsense and realised it was a scam after buying a plugin (gplus Activater) and realised a similar one was available as free download in WordPress!

  201. Simon Greenhalgh

    Glad to be of service. An articulate, well thought out answer would of been preferred. Buy hey, sarcasm is clever to, right?

  202. Hi Mark,

    Thank you Mark for bringing this issue out in the open. I’m one of those who always purchased most of Todd Gross recommendation coming from different forum. The offer is always very attractive from $7 dollars to $97.00.. too cheap to miss. I admit, 90% of those products are just collecting dust on my hard drive. They are either obsolete or not working.

    On the other hand I cannot blame Todd Gross or Mike Lantz for selling all the time that’s their business and they need to make money..right? I hope this issue will open their eyes, (true or not) please be responsible and stop selling toxic products.

  203. I noticed you posted and 2 other people posted since I submitted my comments, yet I see they are still awaiting moderation? Did I hit a little close to home on this subject?

    If you don’t approve my comments all you are doing is confirming what I was fairly obvious to me here. You are not nearly as smart as you think you are. You could have at least saved some credibility by naming your new forum something completely different. You have to be a real dumbass to name it WSOForum.com. What an idiot.

    It just shows that Mike Lantz response was correct here. How many other people saw through this and posted the same things I did and didn’t get their comments approved either. I wonder if I registered in your forum and posted this comment how long it would take until it was deleted??

    Don’t worry, I will start a thread in the Warrior Forum that I am pretty sure won’t get deleted. I will refrain from doing this if you approve my comments here and explain yourself like a man. I don’t think you will though. You have already proven to me what you are here.

    A hypocrite.

  204. I previously posted a comment right after Mark made this post. After reading all of the following comments, I would like to clarify my statements and make a few other observations.

    1. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion comes from the fact that I personally have been a member of the WF for 3 years. I try to help others and have been thanked numerous times on the forum for doing so. I have even posted my own WSO. And I have purchased a lot of them. So, I have some experience on both sides of the WSO street.

    2. I think the WF performs a valuable service. I have learned a lot there and it is a constant go to resource for things regarding IM. That being said, I would not recommend that anyone take what is said there as gospel.

    3. The WSO forum. I would say its 50% value vs. 50% schlock. I don’t think Mike Lantz is out to screw anyone (I have personally met Mike, I doubt if he remembers me, in Raleigh last year). There are people who do WSO’s to make a quick buck. I have personally posted many bad reviews (and good ones) but have never had a review deleted to my knowledge. There are people who sell WSO’s who I will NEVER buy anything from again. But there are a few I trust. Overall, I would say that for what you are paying, you usually get some value for your money. And because it is Paypal that handles the money, I have always gotten a refund. A couple of times I have had to file a dispute, but usually I get a refund when I ask for it. Most of the time I don’t ask for refunds now, because I don’t buy (I covered my purchase criteria earlier).

    4. As I see it, the biggest problem the WSO forum has is not WSO Plus, but rather is;

    a. The WF not banning people who clearly do not support their product, disappear, or make false claims.
    b. The affiliate nonsense. Way too many sellers abuse their lists with endless emails about offers. The sellers that are reading this make note: You send me a bunch of offers for other WSO’s, I unsubscribe from your list. Period. It is to the point now that I don’t care if I have a product that may need updates. I put all my WSO purchases in a folder now and periodically log in every month or so to to the support site to see if there is an update.
    c. OTO’s and dimesales. I hate them. I DESPISE them. And sellers, if you use them I am more than likely NOT going to buy from you. I mean just think for a minute. If one of the first things prospective buyers start asking you is, “is there a OTO,” and commenting on “please don’t do dimesales” then why keep doing it?
    d. Putting junk out there that has clearly not been at least beta tested. Sure there are going to issues. Technically, the WSO forum is a place WF members are supposed to get stuff cheaper than the rest of the market. And many products do go on to be sold for more off of the WF.

    In summary, I would not urge anyone to abandon the WF or caution them about buying WSOs, other than to use common sense. IMO, WSO’s are better than buying direct from JVZoo or anywhere else. Why? Because you get to read reviews. Sure, there are some fake ones. But you spend some time on the WF and you get to know the people who are for real and fair minded.

    This thread is great because it is informing people. Both prospective buyers, and sellers. Believe me, the regular WSO sellers are reading every word here.

  205. Obviously. It took my second comment to get the first one posted.

    • @ James Redfield – James, I think you under estimate my business and where it is at. Anything you write, or do not write, here or anywhere else, has no effect on my business whatsoever.

      Thank you for your comments.

  206. All you have done is confirmed that you and your business are no different that the ones you took aim at here in your blog post. How many responses to this will get deleted today I wonder? I am sure the only ones you will approve will be the comments which support you.

    So, are you going to man up and tell the truth or are you going to continue with the “I don’t care if I just got busted” attitude.

    I am sure this won’t affect your business since you don’t provide support for most of your previous products anyway. Why should you act any differently now?

  207. Mark,

    Exactly. The Forum has become the new wild west frontier of the IM scammers. I don’t read the WSO Special offers emails anymore and frankly I never really did. It does remind me to take a look occasionally but a lot of the marketers are trying it on. I have been around long enough to know the scams when I see them.

    I only buy from people who I trust, have a history with and who have pedigree in the market place.

  208. Fully agree, Mark. I can’t see the wso section being around this time next year with all the copyright issues and legal threats apparently coming from some larger companies. Not to mention false income claims, product creators writing their own false reviews and breathtaking lies in the sales copy. At least it’s funny when some of the wso creators get their paypal accounts shut down.

  209. I think WSO will be around. There is some good stuff there. There is a new site a warrior out out called wso360.com which is really helpful for looking at WSOs … Makes it very easy to ignore or even unsubscribe from many lists. Even though I’m a bit jaded by the email marketing of WSOs by many marketers, I certainly am not at the WSO forum or even warrior plus for ways to purchase and Download WSOs (much easier than jvzoo)

  210. Thanks for advice Mark

  211. Hi,

    I don’t know why people pay for WSO’s when most are re-hashed stuff, made up for the endless flow of newcomer to internet marketing.


    Mark your post has delighted our members.

    Peachy – IJ Moderator

  212. Thanks Mark
    My first post/ reply to anyone,,,
    I know you don’t know me- I am aware of some of your work-
    Hopefully you do hear of what I am starting up-
    (coming this fall)
    It has been an interesting journey to this point—

    However…This is for you-

    People may make money in many different ways on the net- some, above board, and others a bit below, sometimes way below.

    THANK YOU for an open dialog directed at keeping minds open and wary- THANK YOU from all the people who read these posts and have been nudged just a bit to not believe that every shiny object (web idea) may be more shine and less value (or even a useless ). They are out here- (Hi ya’all). and do not want to be ripped off (actually…no one wants to be ripped off).

    Thank you for being thought provoking-

    Bob Barker…

    PS OK here’s a snippet of what I have been up to… I have been on a quest to learn everything I can about Internet Biz and folks who would like to start up a web business…and the character and characters they come across…from the Good, the Bad the Ugly, and the very Ugly. My budget is a bit over $44,800 US and I am excited to reveal and share results (coming this fall 2012) .

    PPS: Hurry and finish reading this -I may be taking it down when too many folks have read it… (always wanted to do this)

    Thanks again- BB

  213. Insiders seem to understand perfectly well that there is a brand difference between The Forum and the Plus Forum. But for typical users, there is no difference between them.

    The deliberate confusion is a result of bad marketing, laziness, or just plain fraud. They’ve made zero attempt to fix it, only profit from the confusion. They’ve brought no clarity, transparency or standards into the system. Given the amount of time the Warrior and Warrior Plus forums have been around, I suspect that there is complicity in the lack of improvements and the ‘insider trading’ as it were, and it, in my opinion rises to the level of fraud.

    As always, I’d say buyer beware, and never be afraid to ask for a refund. In fact demand it and let others know from your experience. While there are some gems over there, Mark’s stuff for one, I find the place tiresome.

  214. Can’t believe you actually wrote this. A while back, just before Christmas I believe, I tweeted something like this “Clickbank must be cracking down on all the shitty products because now my inbox is full of shitty WSO’s #ripoff”

    Not sure if that’s exactly what I tweeted but close to it. I actually look forward to seeing Clickbank products now instead of WSO’s. I remember when I first started WSO’s were just that. A special offer. An affordable option for a product that’s sold at a higher price elsewhere or soon will be.

  215. Hi Mark, I have quit buying WSO’s too. All too often an upgrade is required to get the full benefit. That is deceptive marketing and people are getting tired of that kind of marketing.

    A friend of mine bought a WSO recently, (I bought it too), and she started setting her stuff up first. She contacted me and said “forget this crap, I’ll have to spend another $200, plus buy their monthly hosting to make this thing work right.” It costs $14 up front.

    What kind of crap marketing is that? It’s almost like selling me a brand new Cadillac cheap, then coming back and telling me I’ll have to buy tires, the engine, the transmission, the seats, windows, radio, a/c, heater, steering, etc. if I really want the full benefit.

    Too many Internet Marketers are using similar techniques, and are destroying the ability to sell on the web, no one trusts anyone anymore. I seldom buy anything anymore, I’m tired of having to buy the upgrades to get what was promised for the low price.

  216. Mark,
    The WSO forum, and for the most part, WF itself has lost any credibility it ever had. He’re an example:

    If you want to see what I mean, there’s a post on my own blog- http://danischaeffer.com/blog/this-kool-aid-has-turned-to-vinegar

  217. Thank You Mark.
    I totally agree with you.
    Although I do find some interesting and useful products on the forum, it’s been flooded with regurgitated, out of date, over-hyped products that make it extremely hard to filter through, finding real gems the way the forum used to be.
    I am subscribed to both forums you have mentioned and I have had much more success with JVZoo lately.
    Thanks for sharing

  218. I can’t agree more with you Mark. Awesome!!!
    I never bought any WSO on Warrior you know why? The sad reality is MOST OF MARKETERS NEVER REVEAL THEIR TRICKS, STRATEGY AND “SECRETS” they usually sell what’s “DEJA VU” .
    Fiverr it’s a joke for me lol How can you believe for $5 you will get an AAA job? Most of members they buy all the crap on Fiverr and they post an AAA feedback without even knowing what will be the result regarding their ranking.
    Newbie don’t fall into CHEAP SERVICE.

  219. Reno-Sparks Computer Repair

    Your points are valid and I have been looking around and alot Internet Marketers are full of crap!. They try to make promises that they cant keep. A word to the wise, do your homework prior to paying for ANY Internet Marketing services.

    Computer Repairs and Website Development by IT Master Services

  220. Thanks for this information Mark.. I have been kind of wondering this myself lately and have even questioned one author of a product I bought and how its features were in other free plugins and mentioned a possible refund request.. He replied that if I did request a refund it would have to be through the Warrior system.. I found this to be very strange considering that any marketer with good integrity would normally honor your request personally with no questions asked.. Needless to say I was stuck with the product because I kept it past the 30 refund requirement without realizing it.. My bad, but it won’t happen again I guarantee you that..

    Question: Just wondering if you know anything about the NEW Pinterest Traffic Blueprint recently listed on a WSO and whether or not it is a legitimate product or another scam?

    Thanks again for your valuable insight.

  221. Hey Bryan… Just my opinion… but I don’t think you really need the course. Pinterest is dead simple and exceedingly useful. Backlinks galore! Over 90% women. Average income over 100K. 25 to 56 years. Great market!

  222. I would totally agree with everything you’ve written in your post. Well done and kudos to you for being so bold! (a “true” Warrior)
    Whilst there have been many worthy WSOD’s there are a predominantly higher number of poor rehashes and as you pointed out “total scams” as well. Whilst Mike Lantz may genuinely not detect some of the hidden anomalies in all WSOD’s I do believe that he should exercise more diligence in assessing candidates rather than focusing on projected warrior response and personal profits.
    I think that overall WF and WSOF have much to offer but it is becoming a more laborious task of sorting the chaff from the hay which to experienced marketers is little more than inconvenient but to newcomers it can be disastrous.
    With respect, whilst you pointed to an alternative in JVzoo I will not personally use that platform as there has been repeated cases of a marketer’s purchasers to then receive a barrage of spam offers from the JVZoo operators themselves. This is clearly unethical and constitutes JV theft IMHO. Whether or not it has since stopped I don’t know but it sure acted as a deterrent in my case and my last product release shifted back to W+ at the last minute because of that (despite having paid $51 for JVZ buy now buttons) when it was brought to my attention by some very active JV partners.
    Best regards,
    Russell Hall

    • @ Russell Hall – Thanks Russell. Seems strange, as I don’t get any. I will ask them directly about how often and how many, and get back to you on this, on this same comment response.

  223. I really like it when people come together and
    share opinions. Great blog, stick with it!

  224. What seems to be happening more often on the WF regarding WSOs is the blatant “refererals” of other reviewers saying how great the product worked and it doesn’t work. I bought a Google places course a few months ago and the guy keeps telling me that I should get the OTO to enhance the offer. My reply is, why should I get that if the first product didn’t work at all?

  225. Mark, Just got your email on Page One Curator. I am considering it. But I have a question as well, regarding PushButton SEO which you recommended against. On his PushButton SEO sales email, ALex Goad mentions the fatal flaw in the All in One SEO plugin. Now, I have searched high and low and apparently All in One had several flaws in times past, but I can find nothing about a current flaw. And I find it interesting that the flaw was mentioned to such a degree, but he does not say what it is. Did he perhaps mean it was missing some feature that was important? Because I don’t see the connection between PushbuttonSEO and All in One SEO. Sure All in One does not do everything, but most of what Alex promotes on PushbuttonSEO can be done with other free plugins. Do you think this is misleading? What do you think the flaw is that Alex is referring to?

    • @ Jack Heape – This is funny.

      Every premium wordpress theme made these days, which most serious bloggers would use, already have SEO options integrated into the theme, so any seo pack plugin is not needed.

      Yoast makes a great seo pack plugin, which I would recommend, if you are needing one.

  226. Hi Mark,
    First off all thanks or this useful post and second…
    You know what… You can’t get a luxury car for $500. The cheap internet marketers always wants to pay $1 and get $1000. And this is “normal”. Before to buy something I always perform a lot of homeworks. By the ways, the best tool is you brain.

  227. Hey Mark.

    You have confirmed my beliefs about WSOTD’s for quite some time. While I respect the system of the WF and the WSO’s – and even Mike’s W+ system, I have these same issues with it. I like the W+ system because I can quickly get a list in one place of every W+ purchase I’ve made. This has kept me from buying something twice a time or two in the past. Plus, it has helped me come back and actually download something that I forgot that I had purchased. For that, I don’t begrudge Mike making something from WSO’s that either run through his system or that he promotes.

    However, I do have issues that he promotes what appears to be just anything that comes along. For the longest time, I thought his WSOTD recommendation was something he had checked out and firmly believed in. I can’t remember what it was that he promoted or when it happened, but at some point he promoted something that I was 90% certain was a worthless product. I was correct in my assertion, but Mike was still promoting it in his weekly email as well. That told me really quickly that he was not really checking out authors or products, just picking something.

    I was also led to believe initially that when something was chosen as WSOTD, the pricing was made to be even a better “special” that just the WSO pricing. However, there was a thread that I was following and had actually purchased. Mike recommended it on the next day’s WSOTD at a “special price”, but it was the same price I had bought it at the day before. BTW, it was not a dimesale, but a fixed pricing model.

    This blew a hole in any idea that the WSOTD was anything special – it was convinced of it now.

    On another note, I’m also getting tired of all the WSOTD “pretenders” that have cropped up in the past few weeks/months. I get a dozen or more emails from these “pretenders” every day. I never subscribed to their list so I always wonder where they got my name/email address from. Those “pretenders” are just as dangerous to the integrity of the WSO system as Mike’s randomly picked WSOTD.

    I try to be very careful who I purchase WSO’s from and it’s become increasingly difficult for me to purchase from anyone that I do not know or haven’t already established a relationship with. I almost never ask for a refund – even if I feel I’ve been scammed – because I can usually find something of value from almost everything I’ve ever purchased. Sometimes, that “something of value” is the bought experience of knowing the marketer and all promoting his product are to be watched more carefully.

    Thanks Mark for the products that you’ve brought to market and your diligence to update them as opportunities arise. As I’ve said before, Mark’s products may be priced a bit higher than others right out of the gate, but what he delivers is a product that works right out of the gate. If something is discovered lacking/not working, the situation is addressed rather than the person reporting it being belittled publicly. I am glad that Frank Haywood introduced me to Mark – it has been a very beneficial relationship.

  228. Thanks Mark, great post.

    Regarding buying WSO’s; you sure get bombarded with affiliate offers.
    The point with buying a product and remaining in contact with that vendor, is to get updates when they’re available.
    I absolutely hate getting a constant barrage of emails promoting others’ products…
    I usually unsubscribe quite quickly!!!

    However WSO’s are always reasonably priced (cheap), and are a great and quick way to learn about a subject…
    all of the information is generally up-to-date and nicely formatted.
    Sure – there’s lots of free information out there, but some WSO’s have condensed it all nicely… for only $9 etc…

    I’ve bought several WSO’s for research purposes, to find the “nuggets”, plus many even have video tutorials.
    I do try to filter the marketing hype to see if there’s any real value to me.

    My main gripe with WSO… as mentioned is the amount of follow-up emails.
    I think that is the mentality of the WSO community and anyone new promoting a worthwhile product generally falls under the same umbrella.

    Or is this how most marketers think?


  229. I have to agree with Mark. Buying someone’s product shouldn’t automatically give them permission to send you a deluge of promotional emails. It should be respected and used for support and updates. They should have a second list that you can opt-in to should you so wish.

  230. Surprising.
    I bought two products Dulisse Mark.
    They do not work in France.
    I requested a refund.
    No new Mr Dulisse.
    And he can say that others are scammers!??

  231. There are a lot of people out there echoing your sentiment on the current state of the Warrior Forum but it’s really nice to have a specific example of the rubbish that is going on over there now days. Thanks for standing up and pointing out the ne’er do wells. Thanks Mark.

  232. Hello Mark

    I agree with much of what you say about WSOs, but I’m a bit surprised that you are surprised at the situation.

    I know how long it takes me to evaluate a product before I make a decision to promote it. So it seemed blatantly obvious to me from the start that the only form of evaluation that Mike does for WSOTD is
    – positive responses in the forum
    – sales trending upwards
    – high EPC
    – probably some effort to avoid obvious scams

    You quickly learn to pay attention to some people’s promotions, whilst ignoring other people’s.

    Since it is obvious that Mike’s overriding goal is to maximise the returns from his mailings I simply pay scant attention to WSOTD mailings. Instead, I pay attention to those WSOs that are promoted by people I trust.

    I see no reason to avoid WSOs en-bloc.

    BTW – the advice I give to my own subscribers about how to deal with WSO deluge is simply this:

    “Be 100% clear about what stage of business development you are at, and what your business needs are, and then you can make a rational decision about what to buy.”

    I know that it is so obvious it shouldn’t need stating, but in my experience, that lack of clarity is at the root of the problems faced by 95% of new marketers (and a large proportion of establish ones!). So much so, that a major strand of my business is focused on helping people fix it.

    Alex Goodall

    • @ Alex Goodall,

      All sounds good, but still doesn’t focus on the real issue.

      Let me state it bluntly: “WarriorPlus has promoted blatant scams, and products boarding on criminal marketers looking for a money grab.” I have personally seen it. And what was worse, is that when it was promoted as WSOTD, other marketers also mailed on it (and you’d think they were good marketers). There was not any due diligence by either Mike Lantz or the others. In fact, I would something is make Warrior Special Offer before it is even launched because of the inner jv crap going on. Any webmaster or list owner who knowingly sells scam garbage is a scam themselves. To say, “well, I don’t look at products, so it is not my fault” is even worse. This is just plain stupidity.

      The solution is to unsubscribe from Warriorplus and do not list at Warrior Forum. If any list owner does the same thing, unsubscribe. Anything less than this, does not hold them accountable as a credible marketer in the industry, in my mind.

  233. What you said is what i have been thinking for a while I stopped going on there a while ago but still get lots of email with the same old crap. Hopefully the panda will vist them

  234. Total scam and they all give each other great reviews or get people from the far east to write reviews(you should write a article about that) Also although I came off it months ago I still get flooded with great offer emails

  235. yes totally scam and here is my real personal experience

    I recenlty made a wso review video by using PLR Articles from other WSO members , I got complain from wso article seller what i dont understand is he said that those article are for personal use only .. well what i did i edit them and convert them into videos that should be consider a different product and who said that article stay own by only few if you sell articles and allow buyers to edit or put their name on it then they are free to turn it into any shape and make different product from it

    anyway i closed my wso and email admin for advice but instead of emailing me back they closed my both accounts

    i admit iam new to wso so if iam wrong here someone should advice me

    now both my account wso pro and warrior are banned ,,, the problem I cant access my wso products that I purchased in past so if anyone can help me here please advice

    WSO is truly bad .. they first say they we will review your product before allow you to make it alive then they shut you off without any notice and they take your $40 this is stealing if they think iam a theif then they should return my $40 because they are theif too

  236. Interesting post and comments.
    I have purchased a lot of WSO’s over the years and most have been crap.
    I have come across a few that when applied correctly made me money. There are a few decent marketers I follow because of the helpful advice, content shared and value of their products. I have also called out some fraudsters in the process.
    There are some recent trends that are disturbing and more importantly if you are marketing your product there you should be aware of or at least think about.
    Many WSO’s threads are monitored and if you post a negative comment it will get deleted. It depends on who the marketers are and how much pull they have.

    This goes out to the product creators. If I buy your course, (lets say it’s for a Facebook product) don’t send me a email two days later promoting another product. How about sending me an email asking if you can help me out with any questions I have about what I bought from YOU.

    For heavens sake segment your lists instead of throwing all your subscribers into the same churning nonsense promotions. Don’t be selfish, if you deliver quality and develop a decent relationship ,people like me that actually buy stuff might buy more in the future instead of un-subbing.

  237. @carlsbadd – #2 – spot on!

  238. Thank you for a straightforward and thruthful review on what to look out for. The fact that internet marketers or who ever want to sell or earn online, buys maoney making software, plugins or tutorials or whatever, and never get around to install it, or act on it – that in itself is a scam. I wish more sellers would offer their skilled installations instead of providing half baked video instructions. Either way, I really enjoyed your post.

  239. When I buy a WSO and they make me enter name and email, I “adjust” my name, so that I know when they’re sending me some promo from their auto responder, and not actually replying to me.

  240. I’m on the same list, and I just don’t look at the offers anymore. You pretty much know without looking that not all of these offers are so “special.” You’ve just said what I’ve definitely been thinking. Nice post.

  241. Well done Mark! Finally someone put an effort to investigate the “Warrior Special Offer of the Day by Mike Lantz”. You have answered all my questions and doubts about the warrior special offer of the day. I totally agree with you that most of it is garbage, and some of them are scams. I think Mike Lantz should stop randomly promoting the WSO just to earn more money and care nothing other than taking money from people.

  242. Thats another thing I agree with If you buy(not any more)a product for the next few weeks you get flooded with great offers which have nothing to do with the product but everything to to with trying to get a extra buck out of you

  243. Mark,

    Your post is right on the money. I once asked on the forum what was the criteria for the WSO of the day and speculated that the WSOs that got picked were extremely high on hyperbole and low on value.

    Would it come as a surprise to you that my post got deleted? LOL.

    Another caveat for anyone that buys these worthless WSOs, be prepared for an avalanche of email spam from the sellers.


  244. I have had similar experiences on Warrior Forum, finding “proof” that didn’t come from the WSO it was supporting. I emailed the OP and got very much the same response you did.

    I’ve also been PMd by people for just questioning their tactics – “does this still work post-Panda”, “what’s your proof that this is a hot niche”, “what your proof that this squeeze page actually converts”. I’ve gotten very heated PMs asking me to edit or delete my comments, saying that I was hurting their sales.

    I’ve learned to become very circumspect.

  245. Tim,

    At least you just got PM’s. I have had comments actually removed from the thread. This never used to happen before WSO Pro came out.

  246. Thanks for our comments. If we all stay silent when scams are known … then scams will rule. Let’s get
    back to winning friends and influence people to do the right thing… for the good of all.

  247. I agree with most of what you said completely. I have bought many things off the Warrior Forum and some of it was junk and some of it was great. You have to be selective and study what you are purchasing. Its also true about the email lists. You will get emailed on almost every daily offer that comes out and there is little value given back to you by being on the marketers email list. At least from the few lists I’ve been on. The only emails I got were ones touting the next WSO. Thanks for the great post Mark.

  248. The problem is we have people like Tristan Bull that teach people to craete money making products to sell online as a WSO, but the people creating the products haven’t made any money in fact the only money made is from selling the info in the WSO, that to me is a Scam and people like Tristan should be shut down for good.

    • @ John – You need to realize the biggest scam online:

      1. Learn How To Make Money Selling ebooks, just buy my ebook.”
      2. Learn How To Make Money Selling WSO’s, just buy my WSO.”
      3. Learn How To Make Money On Clickbank, just buy my Clickbank product.”

      I have the protocol that when I promote something to my list, I actually buy the product, or get it as a JV copy, and I normally Drill the product creator with questions. Only when I am satisfied that my list will benefit, will I email them.

  249. Thanks Mark.

    I have purchased a couple of products from WF and now I get a
    new offer from each one every day drives me nuts.

    I joined W+ to sell the products I use and some won’t let me because
    I don’t have x number of posts on the forum or I’m not on their list
    or purchased their product.

    I thought I was doing them a favor by offering to promote their products.
    But I was wrong. Yet every other affiliate program it’s free to promote products.

    Looks like it’s a bit of a good ol’ boys club and you have to be in their click.


  250. Thanks for the warnings — I’m a marketing newbie and have been to the Warrior Forum and have sometimes been tempted by those Special Offers but was wary. Yours is the first honest appraisal I’ve seen. I’ll be putting a pass on these from now on.

  251. Cheap Sectional Sofas

    Well … its all been written down. For me Mark is absolutely right! after read down all this post (and comments) now i know that not all stuff in WSOF are worth as they stated. Thanks

  252. Hi Mark
    I also unsubscribed from Mike months ago,and never ever bought any of his wso of the day products. I could smell a rat with them right away, and got the same feeling that the Mike guy had never even looked through the so-called wso of the day, good share

    Mike B

  253. It’s a shame how these scammers make money out of unknowing individuals who have nothing but good intentions, be on top of the situation by finding out if its a legitimate deal or not based on the feedback of others. Let us all be wary. Thanks for the heads up.

  254. Hi, great article, very timely. Hope more newbies can read it to be warned against those rehashed products and stay safe.

  255. AMEN brother! Throw Paul Myers in the mix as well. He’s very good at playing both sides. I’m shocked the WF hasn’t been shut down long ago.

    I have absolutely nothing against these guys making a nice income, but when it’s on the backs of those who are trying to get ahead in life and may be down to their last few dollars, it pisses me off to no end. They’re lowlife, scum of the earth.

    I do have to say that the WF is one of the biggest reasons for the great success I’ve had as a marketer. But it really sucked to buy piles of garbage WSO’s and waste all the time of going through them to find the good ones.

  256. I first join Warrior Forum back in 2009 and never really had much of an opinion about it….many top marketers recommended it as a trustworthy site to gain knowledge and information from those who had been there done that.

    Over the past 8 months I have purchased a couple of products and found them to be totally worthless.

    Good on you Mark for saying what I have been thinking for some time and obviously from the comments here so have many other marketers.

  257. I agree, it is great some one is speaking out. Seems few do on the WF for fear of getting banned or shut out of the gang.

    One thing that has REALLY frustrated me, and even before Warrior+ was all positive comments and reviews on crap WSO’s.

    I remember buying a WSO that was suppose to explain publishing on Amazon, before kindle become hot. It was one of the first on the subject. I paid like $47, it was about 10 pages and told very little. The bonus was a forum that the seller rarely posted on, and when they did it was PM’s to answer questions. Isn’t that the purpose of a forum, answer for all to learn from? And this product has SO many positive rreviews.. argh..

    Actually I am surprised Allen hasn’t gotten sued yet. I see WSO’s all the time with things like copyrighted images. I saw one not long ago that had a simpsons or similar image in the WSO copy. Seems to be happening alot lately. Big companies are not going take “ooppss.. sorry” when some one if using their stuff, and allen will be held accountable. Surprised he doesn’t cover himself more.

    Far too much churn and burn going on over there 🙁

  258. Thank you for the heads up.

  259. What do you guys expect, all the gurus are there because they have worked out correctly that affiliate marketing is hard and it is easier to sell get rich quick schemes to other affiliates – I call it selling sand to the arabs.

    WSO’s are junk, my crapometer goes through the roof whenever I see one.

  260. Thank you Mark. Your post reminds me to be VERY CAREFUL A LOT next time on WSO and scamo! (EDIT)

  261. You mean just like the scam you are promoting in your side bar about “Discover Underground Secrets How to Get $15K – $20K of Free Targeted Traffic.”

  262. Well that’s the headline for the product PinRanker you are promoting in the right sidebar.

  263. Well I searched my mail and luckily I purchased nothing from this guy and I’m not on his mailing list. I will keep my eye out for him. I know I’ve been scammed enough. 2012 was a very much I got scammed year. Thanks Mark. I’d also like to say be careful when someone calls you and wants to train you. I don’t want to get in any lawsuits but there are 2 so called schools that ripped me off good and learned nothing. Just be careful when someone calls you and say they can train you in affiliate marketing…etc or any course and if they want to charge you like they did me 15,000 or more. Don’t do it. Visa MasterCard scams..don’t do it. Anyone that asks you how many credit card do you have and promise you great income…just don’t do it. Not to say anything again, I bought through another vendor and the products which I sent back were all scammy.

  264. Thank you! Your article reminds me to be very careful about scammers. Thanks for shari8ng! Please continue to posts articles like this! Very informative.

  265. hi mark,

    good article!!

  266. An honest and provocative article. I go back and forth because the forum is hard to resist, there’s just so many people that visit and purchase. But I respect and trust you Mark. You’re products are always top notch. I ran across this article because I was re-installing a product I got from you a couple years ago that is still incredible and working like a charm. Sure wish I could pick your brain about a product I’m wanting to purchase right now….

  267. Yes, there are lots of bad products on Warrior but like you said; sometimes you find a gem and that’s why we go there. Plus the products are usually under $20 making it low risk compared to the outside. So I really don’t think this article helps at all! it didn’t convince me or warn me about not going, I will still go there looking for those gems, and I already knew a lot of products are garbage after I bought them, I didn’t need this article to tell me that! it’s not a big deal when you spend $5 here and $10 there, and even when they are bad you probably will pick up a tip or two you didn’t know about. So if you bought a bad product for $15.75 forget about it and move on!

  268. I have to agree with Omar, yes I have purchased a few White Elephants along the way, but I have found a few Gems and learned a lot of things i would not have learned other-wise.
    But the best part is that I have been able to get my money back on some programs that were absolute “Dogs”.
    The best thing is that I have a complete list of every purchase, where, as I find a program that matches my needs, I have gone back and revisited an earlier program which married up and worked in conjunction with it.

  269. I was going through my emails this evening and got yet another email from Mike Lantz promoting another WSO of the day. It then prompted me to Google “who is Mike Lantz” and this blog appeared and boy am I glad I did. I was wondering who this guy was and now I know. Thanks for the expose. Eyes Wide Open now when I get another email from him…

  270. Hi Mark,
    Completely agree. It’s a shame that the situation is as it is because its so difficult to pick out the good stuff from all the crap.
    By the way, has member player replaced traffic player?
    Les Line

  271. Hi Mark

    I’m not sure how I came across your post but I am glad I did. I am a newbie internet marketer, have been more into SEO over the past years. I just started a new blog that reviews IM products and was looking for good products to review and promote on my blog, WarriorPlus being one of them. Thanks for letting me know about all of this. I think from here, I will review products personally before posting about it on my blog to ensure my readers actually get a quality product. This should help keep my blog’s products scam-free.

    Thanks for the referrals for DigiResults.com. Never heard of them but will check them out. I have already joined JVZoo. Will sign up at the 2 forums you mentioned also.

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